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  1. #8566
    Astonishing Member foxley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    Well the only natural time was with Adam and Eve in the garden, with all the animals and plants in harmony. Thats the world God made for us. But our disobedience, following free will, led to the destructive world we live in today.

    Homosexuality is not any different from any other sin. And we struggle with all of them. Bottom line is this is why Christians need to seek God constantly, because they never reach a point where they are perfect and without sin. Due to original sin, basically.
    So homosexuality is a sin, but slavery is approved by God?

    I trust all Christians who believe that homosexuality is sin also make sure that their daughter is not freed after 6 years when they sell her in slavery. After all, the Bible tells us both these things.

  2. #8567
    Ultimate Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    Well the only natural time was with Adam and Eve in the garden, with all the animals and plants in harmony. Thats the world God made for us. But our disobedience, following free will, led to the destructive world we live in today.

    Homosexuality is not any different from any other sin. And we struggle with all of them. Bottom line is this is why Christians need to seek God constantly, because they never reach a point where they are perfect and without sin. Due to original sin, basically.
    And here is the problem with that. Adam and Eve are mythological. So what is "original sin"? Even if you believe God drove the evolution of Man, then he made Man with this "original sin." It wasn't there because some imaginary first ancestor made a mistake.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  3. #8568
    Oni of the Ash Moon Ronin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    Well the only natural time was with Adam and Eve in the garden, with all the animals and plants in harmony. Thats the world God made for us. But our disobedience, following free will, led to the destructive world we live in today.

    Homosexuality is not any different from any other sin. And we struggle with all of them. Bottom line is this is why Christians need to seek God constantly, because they never reach a point where they are perfect and without sin. Due to original sin, basically.
    The only non forgivable sin is to blaspheme against the holy spirit so not all sin's are created equal. That and Leviticus has been chopped up with some getting thrown out as ceremonial, and just for the Jews only keeping the ones that are declared "moral" by the followers of Paul. The idea that all of the sins laid out in the book of Leviticus are all equal in God's eyes seems suspect as when point out the response is "Jesus did away with that one... but not that one". I've read the new testament a few times and never did he go through and cross out any and keep some.
    Surely not everybody was kung fu fighting

  4. #8569
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by foxley View Post
    So homosexuality is a sin, but slavery is approved by God?

    I trust all Christians who believe that homosexuality is sin also make sure that their daughter is not freed after 6 years when they sell her in slavery. After all, the Bible tells us both these things.
    I'm not following your take on slavery. The Bible says its ok? Or are you referring to Paul's writing that a "slave should remain a slave" - if so that is a passage that has nothing to do with sin. Not trying to be obtuse. If I mentioned that slavery was acceptable I don't remember.

    Slavery was around in New Testament days, though, culturally acceptable in Roman culture, iirc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    And here is the problem with that. Adam and Eve are mythological. So what is "original sin"? Even if you believe God drove the evolution of Man, then he made Man with this "original sin." It wasn't there because some imaginary first ancestor made a mistake.
    Potato potahto. The point is we need God, whether or not we came from monkeys. The story of the Bible is one that includes Adam and Eve, though, and I've accurately represented that story as the Biblical reason we need God's redemption and love in our lives.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    The only non forgivable sin is to blaspheme against the holy spirit so not all sin's are created equal. That and Leviticus has been chopped up with some getting thrown out as ceremonial, and just for the Jews only keeping the ones that are declared "moral" by the followers of Paul. The idea that all of the sins laid out in the book of Leviticus are all equal in God's eyes seems suspect as when point out the response is "Jesus did away with that one... but not that one". I've read the new testament a few times and never did he go through and cross out any and keep some.
    Jesus set an impossible standard to us, as a rhetorical device - "You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment." Matthew 5:21-22

    “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." Matthew 5:27-28

    I mean, its kind of silly to try and get God on a technicality. "Yah I hate my brother, but at least I didn't kill him" Its a bit like the old "hate the sin and not the sinner" technicality, right? We should try as hard as possible, as Christians, to not have hate in our hearts period.

    There are more but you get the point, which is that we sin a lot. We are not perfect. Kind of a no duh, I think, but to the people he was preaching to, they believed that if they did x, y and z then they were perfect and had earned salvation. Jesus was here to say that the law had essentially failed, just as in Eden God's rules for Adam and Eve had failed. So in essence the details of what is and is not a sin don't matter as much as the overall concept being communicated.
    Last edited by Scott Taylor; 03-03-2020 at 04:05 PM.
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  5. #8570
    Astonishing Member foxley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    I'm not following your take on slavery. The Bible says its ok? Or are you referring to Paul's writing that a "slave should remain a slave" - if so that is a passage that has nothing to do with sin. Not trying to be obtuse. If I mentioned that slavery was acceptable I don't remember.

    Slavery was around in New Testament days, though, culturally acceptable in Roman culture, iirc.
    Leviticus 25: 44-46:

    Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life
    Sounds like an unequivocal statement that slavery is acceptable to me.

    So homosexuality, bad. Slavery, acceptable. Or are we allowed to pick and choose the word of God now?

  6. #8571
    Ultimate Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    Potato potahto. The point is we need God, whether or not we came from monkeys. The story of the Bible is one that includes Adam and Eve, though, and I've accurately represented that story as the Biblical reason we need God's redemption and love in our lives.
    But with Adam and Eve not being real, and us evolving from primates, what is original sin? What is the sin we all must repent for?
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  7. #8572
    Incredible Member luprki's Avatar
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    Canít see how homosexuality is a sin, God made:
    Some people gay, some people straight
    Some people tall, some people short
    Some people white, some people black, some people brown, some people yellow, some people red
    Some people shy, some people outgoing
    And He loves all of us

  8. #8573
    Oni of the Ash Moon Ronin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luprki View Post
    Can’t see how homosexuality is a sin, God made:
    Some people gay, some people straight
    Some people tall, some people short
    Some people white, some people black, some people brown, some people yellow, some people red
    Some people shy, some people outgoing
    And He loves all of us
    Because they didn't (don't) understand that being gay was (is) not a choice that they are "made" that way and just lumped in it with all the other sexual deviancies.
    Surely not everybody was kung fu fighting

  9. #8574
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    But with Adam and Eve not being real, and us evolving from primates, what is original sin? What is the sin we all must repent for?
    Sin would still be disobedience to God. It just would work out differently. So if its evolution rather than creation then original sin could happen anytime after free will evolves in humanity, in probably a near infinite number of different scenarios. God would still have to provide the rules to humanity once free will has developed, either personally or through another individual. A moral code.
    Every day is a gift, not a given right.

  10. #8575
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by foxley View Post
    Leviticus 25: 44-46:


    Sounds like an unequivocal statement that slavery is acceptable to me.

    So homosexuality, bad. Slavery, acceptable. Or are we allowed to pick and choose the word of God now?
    Back then slavery was acceptable. God gave the priests of Israel a civil law on how to deal with it along with lots of other agrarian society types of civil laws, debt laws, etc. They don't apply today, in a culture where slavery isn't acceptable. If we still had slavery, maybe they would apply?

    What you are implying is that because slavery was acceptable then it should be acceptable now, on the basis that Israel had laws dealing with slavery. And thats a stretch of logic that would make Stretch Armstrong proud.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    Because they didn't (don't) understand that being gay was (is) not a choice that they are "made" that way and just lumped in it with all the other sexual deviancies.
    So you don't think other sexual "deviancies" mightn't be genetic, too?
    Every day is a gift, not a given right.

  11. #8576
    Oni of the Ash Moon Ronin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    Back then slavery was acceptable. God gave the priests of Israel a civil law on how to deal with it along with lots of other agrarian society types of civil laws, debt laws, etc. They don't apply today, in a culture where slavery isn't acceptable. If we still had slavery, maybe they would apply?

    What you are implying is that because slavery was acceptable then it should be acceptable now, on the basis that Israel had laws dealing with slavery. And thats a stretch of logic that would make Stretch Armstrong proud.
    But still slavery is not a "sin" it is just no acceptable by society and that is what makes it wrong. Homosexuality is accepted more and more each day how come the "word" can't be amended according to social acceptance there?



    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    So you don't think other sexual "deviancies" mightn't be genetic, too?
    Like what? are you about to equate homosexuality with pedophilia? Which by the way is never addressed in the bible.
    Last edited by Moon Ronin; 03-04-2020 at 12:16 PM.
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  12. #8577
    Incredible Member luprki's Avatar
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    Pedophiles could be heterosexual or homosexual. Gender attraction has nothing to do with it.

  13. #8578
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    But still slavery is not a "sin" it is just no acceptable by society and that is what makes it wrong. Homosexuality is accepted more and more each day how come the "word" can't be amended according to social acceptance there?
    Well this is the interplay between culture and religion. The Bible gives us principles to go off of, rather than cover every detail that could come up. So that Leviticus part about ownership of property included a passage about slaves because it was culturally a thing at that time. But the principle in play is property law.

    Lots of Christians think there is nothing wrong with homosexuality. Who am I to judge them? Thats for God to do, if he wishes to, I don't speak for him. All I can do is interpret the scriptures the way I see them, in the best way I know how. Jesus flat out says not to judge people. People fail to follow that - and its a sin, I think. Just more proof that the Bible is about how everyone sins and needs redemption from God.

    Like what? are you about to equate homosexuality with pedophilia? Which by the way is never addressed in the bible.
    No, just saying that humans are complicated and have genetic tendencies and other tendencies that are caused by the environment mixed together. The Bible doesn't distinguish between underlying causes for sin, like a legal court would. It just makes the case that people all sin and need redemption for it.
    Every day is a gift, not a given right.

  14. #8579
    Astonishing Member foxley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    Back then slavery was acceptable. God gave the priests of Israel a civil law on how to deal with it along with lots of other agrarian society types of civil laws, debt laws, etc. They don't apply today, in a culture where slavery isn't acceptable. If we still had slavery, maybe they would apply?

    What you are implying is that because slavery was acceptable then it should be acceptable now, on the basis that Israel had laws dealing with slavery. And thats a stretch of logic that would make Stretch Armstrong proud.
    It might have escaped your attention, but in the vast majority of Western civilization, homosexuality is acceptable, so should not the Bible's teaching on homosexuality be similarly modified?

    Others on this thread have said that the Bible is the undiluted word of God and we cannot justify ignoring parts of it by saying it comes from a different time. By that logic, if you believe that homosexuality is wrong because the Bible says so, then you have to accept that slavery is acceptable (and that you can make people slaves for life and bequeath them to them to your children) for exactly the same reason: the Bible says so.

    But, if you believe you can modify your view on slavery because the Bible was written a long time ago, then why can't you modify your view on homosexuality because the Bible was written a long time ago?

  15. #8580
    Incredible Member luprki's Avatar
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    I think God never attended to say homosexuality is wrong and slavery is okay.
    The Bible has been translated over and over for many years by men. A lot of it’s true meanings has been lost through interpretation and faulty translation.

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