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  1. #931
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    Biblical free will cracks me up.

    You get free will, but if you go and actually use it in a way god doesn't approve of, you get punished for it eternally. How is that free will?
    Think about what you just said. God does not punish us, we punish ourselves. YOU and ME and EVERYONE has free will. That means we can choose to follow and obey God (sinners, but forgiven) or not follow and obey Him (sinners, the sin remains). You cannot stand before God or be in His presence as a sinner. Therefore, YOU decide of your own free will where your eternal destiny lies.

  2. #932
    Astonishing Member Old Man Ollie 1962's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Knight1047 View Post
    Free. Will.

    God could have just made all of us spiritual beings and let us reside in Heaven. But everyone would have had to be PERFECT and without sin. We are not. God cannot have sin in His presence. Now, it doesn't say this ANYWHERE in the bible, but if you read between the lines, it's fairly obvious---God placed us in flesh and set us on Earth with the ability to choose (free will) whether or not we want to obey and follow Him. God could have created automatons that blindly followed his orders, rendering us all basically robots. But He didn't want that. He wanted us all to decide on our own.

    In the end, you decide where your eternal resting place will be, not God.

    DK, I understand that. But do you understand if Adam and Eve HAD NOT disobeyed God's commandment concerning the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Bad, the first human pair and their descendants would be perfect, enjoying life in paradise? My point is, God's purpose for man hasn't changed. God will bring about his kingdom both in heaven and earth, through the means of his son Jesus Christ. According to the scriptures, Christ is a reigning king now. Heaven has been cleansed. Satan and his minions have been ousted. (Revelation 12:12) What has yet to take place is the kingdom here on earth. Again, according to the scriptures, that will happen when God destroys this wicked system and replaces it with HIS global government/kingdom. (Daniel 2:44) Finally, as for those who are going to heaven, I have some reference material on the subject:

    Did we all exist in the spirit realm before our birth as humans?

    John 8:23: “[Jesus Christ said:] ‘You are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. You are from this world; I am not from this world.’” (Jesus did come from the spirit realm. But, as Jesus said, other men did not.)

    Rom. 9:10-12: “Rebekah conceived twins . . . When they had not yet been born nor had practiced anything good or vile, in order that the purpose of God respecting the choosing might continue dependent, not upon works, but upon the One who calls, it was said to her: ‘The older will be the slave of the younger.’” (Of course, if the twins Jacob and Esau had lived previously in a spirit realm they certainly would have built up a record based on their conduct there, would they not? But they had no such record until after their birth as humans.)

    Do all good people go to heaven?

    Acts 2:34: “David [whom the Bible refers to as being ‘a man agreeable to the LORD's heart’] did not ascend to the heavens.”

    Matt. 11:11: “Truly I say to you people, Among those born of women there has not been raised up a greater than John the Baptist; but a person that is a lesser one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is.” (So John did not go to heaven when he died.)

    Ps. 37:9, 11, 29: “Evildoers themselves will be cut off, but those hoping in Jehovah are the ones that will possess the earth . . . The meek ones themselves will possess the earth, and they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace. The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it.”

    If Adam had not sinned, would he eventually have gone to heaven?
    Gen. 1:26: “God went on to say: ‘Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every moving animal that is moving upon the earth.’” (So, God’s purpose for Adam was that he be caretaker of the earth and of the animal life there. Nothing is said about his going to heaven.)
    Gen. 2:16, 17: “LORD also laid this command upon the man: ‘From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.’” (It was not the LORD'S/Jehovah’s original purpose for man someday to die. God’s command here quoted shows that he warned against the course that would lead to death. Death was to be punishment for disobedience, not the doorway to a better life in heaven. Obedience would have been rewarded by continued life, eternal life, in the Paradise that God had given to man. See also Isaiah 45:18.)
    Must a person go to heaven to have a truly happy future?
    Ps. 37:11: “The meek ones themselves will possess the earth, and they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.”
    Rev. 21:1-4: “I saw a new heaven and a new earth . . . I heard a loud voice from the throne say: ‘Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.’”
    Mic. 4:3, 4: “They will not lift up sword, nation against nation, neither will they learn war anymore. And they will actually sit, each one under his vine and under his fig tree, and there will be no one making them tremble; for the very mouth of the LORD of armies has spoken it.”
    Did Jesus open the way to heaven for those who had died before his own death?
    What does 1 Peter 3:19, 20 mean? “In this state [in the spirit, following his resurrection] also he [Jesus] went his way and preached to the spirits in prison, who had once been disobedient when the patience of God was waiting in Noah’s days, while the ark was being constructed, in which a few people, that is, eight souls [“souls,” KJ, Dy; “people,” TEV, JB; “persons,” RS], were carried safely through the water.” (Were those “spirits in prison” the souls of the humans who had refused to take heed to Noah’s preaching before the Flood, and was the way now open for them to go to heaven? Comparison of 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 6 with Genesis 6:2-4 shows that these spirits were angelic sons of God that had materialized and married in Noah’s day. At 1 Peter 3:19, 20 the Greek word for “spirits” is pneuʹma·sin, while the word rendered “souls” is psy·khaiʹ. The “spirits” were not disembodied souls but disobedient angels; the “souls” here referred to were living people, humans, Noah and his household. What was preached to “spirits in prison” must therefore have been a message of judgment.)
    What is the meaning of 1 Peter 4:6? “In fact, for this purpose the good news was declared also to the dead, that they might be judged as to the flesh from the standpoint of men but might live as to the spirit from the standpoint of God.” (Were these “dead” the people who had died prior to the death of Christ? As already shown, the dead are not “the spirits in prison.” Those spirits were disobedient angels. And preaching would not have benefited physically dead humans because, as Ecclesiastes 9:5 says, they “are conscious of nothing at all,” and Psalm 146:4 adds that at death a person’s “thoughts do perish.” But Ephesians 2:1-7, 17 does refer to persons who were spiritually dead and who came to life spiritually as a result of accepting the good news.)
    Is heavenly life set out in the “New Testament” as the hope for all Christians?
    Last edited by Old Man Ollie 1962; 01-26-2016 at 04:35 PM.

  3. #933
    Astonishing Member Old Man Ollie 1962's Avatar
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    HEAVEN PART 2


    John 14:2, 3: “In the house of my Father there are many abodes. Otherwise, I would have told you, because I am going my way to prepare a place for you. Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will receive you home to myself, that where I am you also may be.” (Jesus here shows that his faithful apostles, to whom he was speaking, would, in time, be in his Father’s “house,” in heaven, with Jesus. But he does not here say how many others would also go to heaven.)

    John 1:12, 13: “As many as did receive him [Jesus], to them he gave authority to become God’s children, because they were exercising faith in his name; and they were born, not from blood or from a fleshly will or from man’s will, but from God.” (Notice that the context, in verse 11, refers to Jesus’ “own people,” the Jews. As many of them as did receive him when he came to them in the first century became God’s children, with heavenly life in view. The verbs in the text are in the past tense, so this passage is not referring to all people who have become Christians since then.)

    Rom. 8:14, 16, 17: “All who are led by God’s spirit, these are God’s sons. The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. If, then, we are children, we are also heirs: heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ, provided we suffer together that we may also be glorified together.” (At the time this was written it was true that all who were led by God’s spirit were God’s sons whose hope was that they would be glorified with Christ. But this had not always been true. Luke 1:15 says that John the Baptizer would be filled with holy spirit, but Matthew 11:11 makes clear that he will not share in the glory of the heavenly Kingdom. So, too, after the gathering of the heirs of the heavenly Kingdom, there would be others who would serve God as followers of his Son and yet not share in heavenly glory.)

    What specific references are there in the “New Testament” to a provision for Christians to be rewarded with eternal life on earth?
    Matt. 5:5: “Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth.”
    Matt. 6:9, 10: “Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified. Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth.” (What is God’s will regarding the earth? What do Genesis 1:28 and Isaiah 45:18 indicate?)
    Matt. 25:31-33, 40, 46: “When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. . . . The king will say to them [the sheep], ‘Truly I say to you, To the extent that you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’ And [the goats] will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones [the sheep] into everlasting life.” (Notice that these “sheep” are not the same as the King’s brothers, who are “partakers of the heavenly calling.” [Heb. 2:10–3:1] But these sheeplike ones would be alive during the time that Christ was on his throne and during the time when some of his “brothers” would still be experiencing hardship on earth.)
    John 10:16: “I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.” (Who are these “other sheep”? They are followers of the Fine Shepherd, Jesus Christ, but are not in the “new covenant” sheepfold, with hope of heavenly life. Yet they do come to be closely associated with those who are in that sheepfold.)
    2 Pet. 3:13: “There are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell.” (Also Revelation 21:1-4)
    Rev. 7:9, 10: “After these things [after the apostle John saw the full number of “sealed” ones who had been “bought from the earth” to be with Christ on heavenly Mount Zion; see Revelation 7:3, 4; 14:1-3] I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. And they keep on crying with a loud voice, saying: ‘Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.’”
    To how many does the Bible hold out hope of heavenly life?

    Luke 12:32: “Have no fear, little flock, because your Father has approved of giving you the kingdom.”

    Rev. 14:1-3: “I saw, and, look! the Lamb [Jesus Christ] standing upon the Mount Zion [in heaven; see Hebrews 12:22-24], and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. . . . And they are singing as if a new song . . . and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth.”

    Are the 144,000 only natural Jews?
    Rev. 7:4-8: “I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel: . . . Judah . . . Reuben . . . Gad . . . Asher . . . Naphtali . . . Manasseh . . . Simeon . . . Levi . . . Issachar . . . Zebulun . . . Joseph . . . Benjamin.” (These cannot be the tribes of natural Israel because there never was a tribe of Joseph, the tribes of Ephraim and Dan are not included in the list here, and the Levites were set aside for service in connection with the temple but were not reckoned as one of the 12 tribes. See Numbers 1:4-16.)
    Rom. 2:28, 29: “He is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code.”
    Gal. 3:26-29: “You are all, in fact, sons of God through your faith in Christ Jesus. . . . There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one person in union with Christ Jesus. Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise.”
    Is the number 144,000 merely symbolic?
    The answer is indicated by the fact that, after mention of the definite number 144,000, Revelation 7:9 refers to “a great crowd, which no man was able to number.” If the number 144,000 were not literal it would lack meaning as a contrast to the “great crowd.” Viewing the number as literal agrees with Jesus’ statement at Matthew 22:14 regarding the Kingdom of the heavens: “There are many invited, but few chosen.”
    Do those of the “great crowd” referred to at Revelation 7:9, 10 also go to heaven?

    Revelation does not say of them, as it does of the 144,000, that they are “bought from the earth” to be with Christ on heavenly Mount Zion.—Rev. 14:1-3.

  4. #934
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    Hey Ollie, that's way too much to go over. Can you just ask me your questions and I'll try to answer them?

  5. #935
    Fantastic Member Red Wolf's Avatar
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    So heaven is reserved for people god chooses and they rule with Jesus over the people who live on new the earth.
    When you lose the rhythm of the drumbeat of god, you are lost from the peace and rhythm of life.

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    Astonishing Member Old Man Ollie 1962's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redwolf View Post
    So heaven is reserved for people god chooses and they rule with Jesus over the people who live on new the earth.
    Pretty much what it boils down to, my man. I merely post the research for you cats to read at your leisure. Heh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Redwolf View Post
    So heaven is reserved for people god chooses and they rule with Jesus over the people who live on new the earth.
    It's a little more complex than that. We are saved by God's grace, but we ultimately choose to live our lives for Jesus. Those who choose to obey God and accept Jesus as their savior will go to Heaven. Those that do not choose God, will go to Hell. Keep in mind though, that God did not make Hell for us. It was originally a place that God made to imprison Satan and the angels who rebelled against Him.

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    Astonishing Member Old Man Ollie 1962's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Knight1047 View Post
    It's a little more complex than that. We are saved by God's grace, but we ultimately choose to live our lives for Jesus. Those who choose to obey God and accept Jesus as their savior will go to Heaven. Those that do not choose God, will go to Hell. Keep in mind though, that God did not make Hell for us. It was originally a place that God made to imprison Satan and the angels who rebelled against Him.
    God made a provision for mankind to regain what was lost as a result of Adam's original sin. That provision is the ransom sacrifice of God's son, Jesus Christ. Only a special group of people have a heavenly hope. Jesus even said so. There are two classes of sheep. One class goes to heaven to rule with Christ, and the other class remain on earth to be ruled over. As for the hell doctrine, that's been debunked. Hell is the common grave, my man. So, yes, in a sense EVERYONE is going to hell, for we all die. That's why Christians have hope for the resurrection.

  9. #939
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old School Ollie 1962 View Post
    God made a provision for mankind to regain what was lost as a result of Adam's original sin. That provision is the ransom sacrifice of God's son, Jesus Christ. Only a special group of people have a heavenly hope. Jesus even said so. There are two classes of sheep. One class goes to heaven to rule with Christ, and the other class remain on earth to be ruled over. As for the hell doctrine, that's been debunked. Hell is the common grave, my man. So, yes, in a sense EVERYONE is going to hell, for we all die. That's why Christians have hope for the resurrection.
    Ollie, can I ask what bible you read? What denomination you are?

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    Astonishing Member Old Man Ollie 1962's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Knight1047 View Post
    Ollie, can I ask what bible you read? What denomination you are?
    I have several translations of the Bible. I am not a baptized member of ANY religious organization. But I am familiar with the teachings and doctrines that Christians follow. I study these teachings and draw conclusions based on reason and logic. I must say, however, that some of these teaching/doctrines range anywhere from convoluted, esoteric, provincial to straight up absurd. No wonder the world of Christendom is so fragmented.

  11. #941
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old School Ollie 1962 View Post
    I have several translations of the Bible. I am not a baptized member of ANY religious organization. But I am familiar with the teachings and doctrines that Christians follow. I study these teachings and draw conclusions based on reason and logic. I must say, however, that some of these teaching/doctrines range anywhere from convoluted, esoteric, provincial to straight up absurd. No wonder the world of Christendom is so fragmented.
    Thanks. I just wondered because you said "As for the hell doctrine, that's been debunked. Hell is the common grave, my man."

    Can you tell me what part of the bible you're getting your information from?

  12. #942
    Astonishing Member Old Man Ollie 1962's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redwolf View Post
    The worst events in this country and the world were done in the name of Jesus. Those assholes learned it from somewhere.
    Read these scriptures.


    Ecclesiastes 9:10 - Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do [it] with thy might; for [there is] no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

    Jonah 2:2 - And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, [and] thou heardest my voice.

    Job 14:13 - O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!

    Psalms 86:13 - For great [is] thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.

    Bible verses related to Sheol from the King James Version (KJV)

  13. #943
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old School Ollie 1962 View Post
    Read these scriptures.


    Ecclesiastes 9:10 - Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do [it] with thy might; for [there is] no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

    Jonah 2:2 - And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, [and] thou heardest my voice.

    Job 14:13 - O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!

    Psalms 86:13 - For great [is] thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.

    Bible verses related to Sheol from the King James Version (KJV)
    From Matthew 25:41-46:
    “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

    44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

    45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

    46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

  14. #944
    Astonishing Member Old Man Ollie 1962's Avatar
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    Gehenna, the Lake of Fire, and Hell were all combined to create a fiery place to punish and torment the wicked for an eternity.
    I should think death would be enough for God. Sadism? Torture? That kind of god sounds like Dick Cheney to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Knight1047 View Post
    From Matthew 25:41-46:
    “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

    44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

    45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

    46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
    Symbolism, my man, symbolism. DEATH. THE END. NOTHINGNESS. I have more research on the subject. Tons of it, actually.

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