Will Marvel still have continuity after Secret Wars?

[PizzaPatty]

I have always been a big fan of continuity and have all my comics exist in one big shared universe and since dc pretty much said screw continuity with the new 52 I am slowly ditching all their books and will be coming back to marvel. I feel like nothing matters with dc and that I can just ditch their books and jump back on at any time.
So what will marvels continuity look like after secret wars?
I understand comics evolve with the times. But will that core continuity still be there will the books from the past still matter?

[Prof. Warren]

I have always been a big fan of continuity and have all my comics exist in one big shared universe and since dc pretty much said screw continuity with the new 52 I am slowly ditching all their books and will be coming back to marvel. I feel like nothing matters with dc and that I can just ditch their books and jump back on at any time.
So what will marvels continuity look like after secret wars?
I understand comics evolve with the times. But will that core continuity still be there will the books from the past still matter?

Short answer: yes.

[dragonmp93]

From what i have understood, yes. This is like the inverse of New 52, everything happened until it didnt.

[cranger]

I have always been a big fan of continuity and have all my comics exist in one big shared universe and since dc pretty much said screw continuity with the new 52 I am slowly ditching all their books and will be coming back to marvel. I feel like nothing matters with dc and that I can just ditch their books and jump back on at any time.
So what will marvels continuity look like after secret wars?
I understand comics evolve with the times. But will that core continuity still be there will the books from the past still matter?

I just want to point out that although Marvel has never outright done a "nothing happened unless we say it happened" event, yet, Marvel has been much, much more continuity loose for a long time. Not only are there countless retcons but they also ignore anything that will get in the way of a story and the status quo of any given book changes every year or so. It is pretty much the ultimate 'jump in at any time'. Not saying that is good or bad, but is your desire to have tight continuity or just the illusion of?

[jackolover]

What the form of, "nothing has changed" is will be the question. Supposedly the end of Secret Wars will give us that hint. To my mind, something has to be different, even if the continuity remains.

[HaveAtThee]

Depends on how you define continuity. To me, continuity died a long time ago. These days, writers adhere to continuity only when convenient or editorially mandated. It changes constantly.

[wwise03]

Short Answer: Yes

Long Answer: Who cares?

Longer Answer: I mean really, who cares? Either read the story and enjoy it or don't read it. Who cares if the story is in keeping with something that happened in 1992 or 2003?

[juggalord]

Depends on how you define continuity. To me, continuity died a long time ago.

I was one of those kids who learned to read early, by about age 3. In fact, Marvel's comics - in addition to random food labels - were really a large part of what helped me learn. I've been hardcore Marvel since 1978.

I only say all of this because, frankly, continuity has always been a fluid thing. If everything is static and there's nothing beyond what's on the surface then things get boring. That's why it never bothered me so much that Wolverine & Cap had a history that supposedly predated his [Logan's] first appearance. I'm fine with that. What gets me upset is when it all becomes too convoluted, too dense, and none of it aligns.

We know that the start of the modern Marvel Universe was when the likes of Spider-Man, the X-Men, & Fantastic Four first debuted. They all more or less came out around the same time. After that, things get fuzzy and the sliding time scale doesn't slide the same for every character. Let's say that Peter Parker was 15 or 16 when he got bitten. Let's also say that Scott Summers was 18 in X-Men #1. They never explicitly give ages in those first issues so I am doing a little guess work here. Not too far off though. How is it then that Marvel has kept Spidey ~25yo while Cyclops is probably 30-32 by now? That 2-3 year age gap has probably doubled. Similarly, Franklin Richards has probably only aged 1 year in the time it has taken his sister Valeria to age 3. This inconsistent sliding scale is part of what screws with continuity.

Another problem, which is also not new in the least is the revolving door of the afterlife. Dead is supposed to be dead, right? Not at Marvel. You can literally trace the source of the problem to one character. Jean Grey. After the revelation in 1986 that Jean & Phoenix were separate entities and that it was actually the Phoenix entity that died, all bets were off. That kicked off the trend. Death became a joke after that.

The entire New Mutants would literally get killed off one issue only to get resurrected a month later. Marvel would then constantly tease the resurrections of Mary & Richard Parker, as well as Ben & Gwen. Norman Osborn dies pretty definitively only to come back decades later. Bucky's death seemed pretty definitive too until the point that he was brought back because... comics. Because death became a joke, so did the idea of meaningful conflict.

The funny thing about this specific point is that it's the exact sort of thing that Mark Waid & Alex Ross were addressing in the early parts of Kingdom Come. Hero? Villain? It's all the same thing. Alive? Dead? Who cares? Let's fight! Why? Because... comics. The genre is so caught up in its own cliches, tropes, status quos, and iconography that nothing ever happens. There's only the illusion of stuff happening. There's the illusion of conflict. There's the illusion of rivalry. There's the illusion of consequence. There's the illusion of time.

None of it matters because, now that Marvel's no longer a tiny company with nothing to lose, they've got the sacred cow to keep safe. SPIDER-MAN'S DEAD!!!! *SNIFF* WHATEVER WILL WE DO? Oh, wait. Nevermnd. He's coming back next year, right in time for his movie. Curse you, Richards! I hate you. Can I join the Fantastic Four? Sure. Why not. Daddy, how long am I going to stay 8 years old? Forever, son. Nobody wants to read about a 60 year old Mr. Fantastic, y'know. Peter, will you marry me? Sorry, MJ. I wouldn't want to look old and settled down. Can't have that. Who would want to read about Mr. & Mrs Spider-Man. Nobody? That's who.

Marvel doesn't care about continuity. They haven't in nearly 30 years. The 90s made it worse with the gimmicks, the pandering, and the EXTREME!!!!, but it's always been an issue. In the 53 years of modern Marvel, continuity only mattered for barely 20 of them.

The sad truth is that this is the way it is. Marvel will never change things much. They can't afford to. They will remain in a constant state of illusory evolution. Smells like progress. Sold like progress. Even reads like progress. It's just more of the same old thing though. Spider-Man will evolve no more than the likes of Disney's other cash cow, Mickey Mouse. Things looking up for ole Petey these days? Just wait. That Parker luck will kick in eventually and he'll look almost exactly as he did pre-Secret Wars. Bank on it.

This is a large reason why non-DC/Marvel is so popular lately. When a character dies, that's it. When a character gets married, well, there's usually not a pact with the devil to undo things. Non-Marvel characters are allowed to evolve. That's even true in the more established series like Invincible. Mark started off as a gawky teenager. He's now married, lives off world, & has a kid. His supporting cast has changed in some pretty lasting ways over the years too. Even when the book pretends to look back, it's always moving forward. Marvel & DC are the exact opposite. They pretend to move forward, but are always looking back. They're reliving their glory days.

I'm not saying that ANAD Marvel won't be different. We can already see change in the way of a diversified set of characters and published books. The content.... the core of it... probably won't stray too far away from baseline though. You could say that Marvel has to be Marvel, but that kinda traps them in small box. That's where we're at right now. Step 1: Later. Step 2: Rinse. Step 3: Repeat. Step 4: Pretend nobody notices step 3. That's the Marvel way.

Common sense, clarity, & continuity? PFF!!! That's for less established books. Marvel's got money to print. Cha-ching!

[Of Atlantis]

Depends on how you define continuity. To me, continuity died a long time ago. These days, writers adhere to continuity only when convenient or editorially mandated. It changes constantly.

Pretty much. Marvel's held a pretty loose grip on what continuity means within their own universe. It isn't uncommon to "break character" to tell the story writers/editors want to tell at continuity's expense.

[juggalord]

Pretty much. Marvel's held a pretty loose grip on what continuity means within their own universe. It isn't uncommon to "break character" to tell the story writers/editors want to tell at continuity's expense.

The Ultimate Universe was supposed to be their second chance at establishing a continuity with lasting changes. It was the place where dead was supposed to last & matter. Look at how all of that turned out. They even reversed Peter Parker's death eventually. Ultimate Universe eventually became as muddy and contrived as the 616. How much do you wanna bet that scrapping both universes and creating this nuMarvel will accomplish nothing? That's easy money, really. Same mud. Different landscape.

[juggalord]

Just for the record... I still love Marvel and hope for the absolute best. That love for this universe and these characters is why I'm so critical. I want these characters and stories to carry more weight. I want them to be the shining example of what comics could and should be. I don't want them to fall into the trap of sacrificing character for story or vice versa. Continuity should be viewed as an asset, not a liability. The writing and art might have evolved over the years, but Marvel's output was actually once a much greater and much smarter. They WERE "The House of Ideas". Today? Not as much. That saddens me.

[lorddominicus85]

I have always been a big fan of continuity and have all my comics exist in one big shared universe and since dc pretty much said screw continuity with the new 52 I am slowly ditching all their books and will be coming back to marvel. I feel like nothing matters with dc and that I can just ditch their books and jump back on at any time.
So what will marvels continuity look like after secret wars?
I understand comics evolve with the times. But will that core continuity still be there will the books from the past still matter?

Devil's advocate, the new 52 was supposed to usher in an era of cleaner and tighter continuity in DC comics especially among the family titles like Batman and Green Lantern, all the books effected each other. You could argue the latest publicity stunt by DC, called DCYou is an introduction to a looser continuity in that the events of Martian Manhunter don't directly effect what's happening in Batman or Justice League but then haven't Marvel and DC always been like that? For decades the X-Men faced end of the world level threats without the Avengers ever popping their heads in to help out so arguing for a universe with tighter continuity is sort of laughable because both of the big two are major offenders if that is what you're looking for.

Just read whatever interests you because going into a book wanting one very specific thing that you know you're not going to get is the easiest way to be disappointed.

[jackolover]

Short Answer: Yes

Long Answer: Who cares?

Longer Answer: I mean really, who cares? Either read the story and enjoy it or don't read it. Who cares if the story is in keeping with something that happened in 1992 or 2003?

Good question

Some people see comics in a different light, not as a literature, but something else. Myself, I tend to keep the references to past incidents as significant, like a long running soap opera. It has my interest because it sticks to a consistency that I follow. I suppose different people look at comicbooks from different perspectives. Maybe some people pick up a book without any preconceived ideas of what came before and just appreciate the arc they are reading?

[Lee Stone]

From what I understand...

Everything from before Secret Wars happened. In every universe as it's appeared.

A (giant) bus stopped at each universe and picked up a bunch of characters, then deposited them all on the same yacht.

They had a three hour tour, which lasted several months.

They stopped for a bit at an island resort.

They mingled, they laughed, they cried. Some made new friends, some contracted an exotic disease and died.

As they were on their way back to the bus, their universes melded together.

They got on the bus and were all deposited into a new universe that had elements of all the old ones, but most predominantly the one that had been the ficus of the comics for the longest.

Kinda like Crisis on Infinite Earths, but with the key difference that the heroes weren't on the Earths when they melded and they all still have their memories.

Most likely, it'll just still be 616 with elements of all the other Earths sewn in.

[jackolover]

I was one of those kids who learned to read early, by about age 3. In fact, Marvel's comics - in addition to random food labels - were really a large part of what helped me learn. I've been hardcore Marvel since 1978.

I only say all of this because, frankly, continuity has always been a fluid thing. If everything is static and there's nothing beyond what's on the surface then things get boring. That's why it never bothered me so much that Wolverine & Cap had a history that supposedly predated his [Logan's] first appearance. I'm fine with that. What gets me upset is when it all becomes too convoluted, too dense, and none of it aligns.

We know that the start of the modern Marvel Universe was when the likes of Spider-Man, the X-Men, & Fantastic Four first debuted. They all more or less came out around the same time. After that, things get fuzzy and the sliding time scale doesn't slide the same for every character. Let's say that Peter Parker was 15 or 16 when he got bitten. Let's also say that Scott Summers was 18 in X-Men #1. They never explicitly give ages in those first issues so I am doing a little guess work here. Not too far off though. How is it then that Marvel has kept Spidey ~25yo while Cyclops is probably 30-32 by now? That 2-3 year age gap has probably doubled. Similarly, Franklin Richards has probably only aged 1 year in the time it has taken his sister Valeria to age 3. This inconsistent sliding scale is part of what screws with continuity.

Another problem, which is also not new in the least is the revolving door of the afterlife. Dead is supposed to be dead, right? Not at Marvel. You can literally trace the source of the problem to one character. Jean Grey. After the revelation in 1986 that Jean & Phoenix were separate entities and that it was actually the Phoenix entity that died, all bets were off. That kicked off the trend. Death became a joke after that.

The entire New Mutants would literally get killed off one issue only to get resurrected a month later. Marvel would then constantly tease the resurrections of Mary & Richard Parker, as well as Ben & Gwen. Norman Osborn dies pretty definitively only to come back decades later. Bucky's death seemed pretty definitive too until the point that he was brought back because... comics. Because death became a joke, so did the idea of meaningful conflict.

The funny thing about this specific point is that it's the exact sort of thing that Mark Waid & Alex Ross were addressing in the early parts of Kingdom Come. Hero? Villain? It's all the same thing. Alive? Dead? Who cares? Let's fight! Why? Because... comics. The genre is so caught up in its own cliches, tropes, status quos, and iconography that nothing ever happens. There's only the illusion of stuff happening. There's the illusion of conflict. There's the illusion of rivalry. There's the illusion of consequence. There's the illusion of time.

None of it matters because, now that Marvel's no longer a tiny company with nothing to lose, they've got the sacred cow to keep safe. SPIDER-MAN'S DEAD!!!! *SNIFF* WHATEVER WILL WE DO? Oh, wait. Nevermnd. He's coming back next year, right in time for his movie. Curse you, Richards! I hate you. Can I join the Fantastic Four? Sure. Why not. Daddy, how long am I going to stay 8 years old? Forever, son. Nobody wants to read about a 60 year old Mr. Fantastic, y'know. Peter, will you marry me? Sorry, MJ. I wouldn't want to look old and settled down. Can't have that. Who would want to read about Mr. & Mrs Spider-Man. Nobody? That's who.

Marvel doesn't care about continuity. They haven't in nearly 30 years. The 90s made it worse with the gimmicks, the pandering, and the EXTREME!!!!, but it's always been an issue. In the 53 years of modern Marvel, continuity only mattered for barely 20 of them.

The sad truth is that this is the way it is. Marvel will never change things much. They can't afford to. They will remain in a constant state of illusory evolution. Smells like progress. Sold like progress. Even reads like progress. It's just more of the same old thing though. Spider-Man will evolve no more than the likes of Disney's other cash cow, Mickey Mouse. Things looking up for ole Petey these days? Just wait. That Parker luck will kick in eventually and he'll look almost exactly as he did pre-Secret Wars. Bank on it.

This is a large reason why non-DC/Marvel is so popular lately. When a character dies, that's it. When a character gets married, well, there's usually not a pact with the devil to undo things. Non-Marvel characters are allowed to evolve. That's even true in the more established series like Invincible. Mark started off as a gawky teenager. He's now married, lives off world, & has a kid. His supporting cast has changed in some pretty lasting ways over the years too. Even when the book pretends to look back, it's always moving forward. Marvel & DC are the exact opposite. They pretend to move forward, but are always looking back. They're reliving their glory days.

I'm not saying that ANAD Marvel won't be different. We can already see change in the way of a diversified set of characters and published books. The content.... the core of it... probably won't stray too far away from baseline though. You could say that Marvel has to be Marvel, but that kinda traps them in small box. That's where we're at right now. Step 1: Later. Step 2: Rinse. Step 3: Repeat. Step 4: Pretend nobody notices step 3. That's the Marvel way.

Common sense, clarity, & continuity? PFF!!! That's for less established books. Marvel's got money to print. Cha-ching!

Very nice Juggerlord. I think some very relevant points are made here about staticness being essential to the big 2 because of the pressures of preserving trade names.

The argument then becomes which is better? The evolving characters like Invincible, or, the recycled stories of the unevolved like Peter Parker? There is an argument that if you do evolve the character, you destroy the character. He gets old and rusty, and the story is like what happens to old men. They just fade away, because they can't act on a crisis due to circumstances, and basically don't care. Marvel don't do a Phantom, where the character dies and is replaced by another Phantom, and generations of them can be traced down in history. Marvel want Peter Parker to be the character in the story, because he is the most resilient at being Spider-Man. They could pick Matty Franklin I suppose, but she was a spoiled brat, and she didn't have an interesting back story.

I think Marvel fans get attached to the one characters detail and flaws. Things like Ben Reilly are interesting, and so is Spider-Gwen, but when it comes right down to it, nothing is as interesting as the original because so much emotional investment went into his sculpting. It's a sad fact. The people who read the first Spider-Man are going to view all other versions as mimics. And, this sets up a pressure about keeping Peter Parker as a template.