Will Marvel still have continuity after Secret Wars?

[cyberhubbs]

I'm pretty sure writers and artists have been abusing continuity for a long time. There's some creators back in the day who 'respected' it, As there are now, but there were also the guys who weren't afraid to say it was all a dream or someone was a robot or the character's abusive behavior was because of some villain's evil machinations. Now with so many different takes on characters over the years, it gets easier and easier to argue whether or not continuity is being respected.

Truth is that you can't respect every single bit of continuity. There's too much of it. So you tell your story and don't mind it when some know-it-all wants to prove how many comics they've read.

[RobinFan4880]

Dan Slott already let it slip in a debate he was having with John Byrne that the MU is not changing. The only difference is that there is an 8 month time skip that allows the creative teams to forge a new status quo for every hero.

Continuity in general works better when you have fewer cooks in the kitchen. Making a truly cohesive universe is much easier to accomplish when you are only publishing a dozen books. The minute you have to inter-twine 50 books, all written by different writers and all drawn by different artists is going to be the death knell for a truly tight continuity. Even worse is when characters appear in multiple books, books that can have different creative teams AND different editors. The left hand doesn't always know what the right is doing.

but then haven't Marvel and DC always been like that? For decades the X-Men faced end of the world level threats without the Avengers ever popping their heads in to help out so arguing for a universe with tighter continuity is sort of laughable because both of the big two are major offenders if that is what you're looking for.

Yes and no. I think it was always assumed that the heroes tackling the world ending threat were the ones who were available at the time. If Galactus shows up, it could be assumed that the Avengers and the X-Men were off fighting elsewhere in the country or around the world. They couldn't make it to NYC in time to make a difference. Heck, this was and is a running gag with the Fantastic Four. Every time a heroes needs their help, the F4 was always off on vacation or in space or visiting another dimension, etc.

[Zero Hunter]

The way I look it now is that continuety only last as long as a writer is working on the book. One writer can set something up and the next come in and doesn't like that and just ignores it and makes up his own negating the previous one. It is one of the main reason I really don't follow hardly any Marvel books anymore. There is not alot that really ties anything together anymore in the Marvel U. At best anything older than 5 years is pretty much forgotten for most stories sometimes it is even less than 2 years.

[RobinFan4880]

The way I look it now is that continuety only last as long as a writer is working on the book. One writer can set something up and the next come in and doesn't like that and just ignores it and makes up his own negating the previous one. It is one of the main reason I really don't follow hardly any Marvel books anymore. There is not alot that really ties anything together anymore in the Marvel U. At best anything older than 5 years is pretty much forgotten for most stories sometimes it is even less than 2 years.

With how comic readers constantly deride runs they don't like or enjoy as "fan fiction", I think it is understandable for the big two to perhaps shove past runs off to the side and focus on the here and now.

[Abe]

Anyone remembers this ?

continuity2.jpg

[Lady Jane]

I hope there will still be a sense of continuity, but also one of calmth for the foreseeable future.

What I used to like about titles like X-Men, was that they progressed. Characters grew up and the past mattered. If you picked up issue 73, you knew that you would have to go back a few issues for the current storylines, and back 72 issues for a complete stories.

Now, some series don't even reach issue 10 anymore, before relaunching.

[shooshoomanjoe]

I was one of those kids who learned to read early, by about age 3. In fact, Marvel's comics - in addition to random food labels - were really a large part of what helped me learn. I've been hardcore Marvel since 1978.

I only say all of this because, frankly, continuity has always been a fluid thing. If everything is static and there's nothing beyond what's on the surface then things get boring. That's why it never bothered me so much that Wolverine & Cap had a history that supposedly predated his [Logan's] first appearance. I'm fine with that. What gets me upset is when it all becomes too convoluted, too dense, and none of it aligns.

We know that the start of the modern Marvel Universe was when the likes of Spider-Man, the X-Men, & Fantastic Four first debuted. They all more or less came out around the same time. After that, things get fuzzy and the sliding time scale doesn't slide the same for every character. Let's say that Peter Parker was 15 or 16 when he got bitten. Let's also say that Scott Summers was 18 in X-Men #1. They never explicitly give ages in those first issues so I am doing a little guess work here. Not too far off though. How is it then that Marvel has kept Spidey ~25yo while Cyclops is probably 30-32 by now? That 2-3 year age gap has probably doubled. Similarly, Franklin Richards has probably only aged 1 year in the time it has taken his sister Valeria to age 3. This inconsistent sliding scale is part of what screws with continuity.

Another problem, which is also not new in the least is the revolving door of the afterlife. Dead is supposed to be dead, right? Not at Marvel. You can literally trace the source of the problem to one character. Jean Grey. After the revelation in 1986 that Jean & Phoenix were separate entities and that it was actually the Phoenix entity that died, all bets were off. That kicked off the trend. Death became a joke after that.

The entire New Mutants would literally get killed off one issue only to get resurrected a month later. Marvel would then constantly tease the resurrections of Mary & Richard Parker, as well as Ben & Gwen. Norman Osborn dies pretty definitively only to come back decades later. Bucky's death seemed pretty definitive too until the point that he was brought back because... comics. Because death became a joke, so did the idea of meaningful conflict.

The funny thing about this specific point is that it's the exact sort of thing that Mark Waid & Alex Ross were addressing in the early parts of Kingdom Come. Hero? Villain? It's all the same thing. Alive? Dead? Who cares? Let's fight! Why? Because... comics. The genre is so caught up in its own cliches, tropes, status quos, and iconography that nothing ever happens. There's only the illusion of stuff happening. There's the illusion of conflict. There's the illusion of rivalry. There's the illusion of consequence. There's the illusion of time.

None of it matters because, now that Marvel's no longer a tiny company with nothing to lose, they've got the sacred cow to keep safe. SPIDER-MAN'S DEAD!!!! *SNIFF* WHATEVER WILL WE DO? Oh, wait. Nevermnd. He's coming back next year, right in time for his movie. Curse you, Richards! I hate you. Can I join the Fantastic Four? Sure. Why not. Daddy, how long am I going to stay 8 years old? Forever, son. Nobody wants to read about a 60 year old Mr. Fantastic, y'know. Peter, will you marry me? Sorry, MJ. I wouldn't want to look old and settled down. Can't have that. Who would want to read about Mr. & Mrs Spider-Man. Nobody? That's who.

Marvel doesn't care about continuity. They haven't in nearly 30 years. The 90s made it worse with the gimmicks, the pandering, and the EXTREME!!!!, but it's always been an issue. In the 53 years of modern Marvel, continuity only mattered for barely 20 of them.

The sad truth is that this is the way it is. Marvel will never change things much. They can't afford to. They will remain in a constant state of illusory evolution. Smells like progress. Sold like progress. Even reads like progress. It's just more of the same old thing though. Spider-Man will evolve no more than the likes of Disney's other cash cow, Mickey Mouse. Things looking up for ole Petey these days? Just wait. That Parker luck will kick in eventually and he'll look almost exactly as he did pre-Secret Wars. Bank on it.

This is a large reason why non-DC/Marvel is so popular lately. When a character dies, that's it. When a character gets married, well, there's usually not a pact with the devil to undo things. Non-Marvel characters are allowed to evolve. That's even true in the more established series like Invincible. Mark started off as a gawky teenager. He's now married, lives off world, & has a kid. His supporting cast has changed in some pretty lasting ways over the years too. Even when the book pretends to look back, it's always moving forward. Marvel & DC are the exact opposite. They pretend to move forward, but are always looking back. They're reliving their glory days.

I'm not saying that ANAD Marvel won't be different. We can already see change in the way of a diversified set of characters and published books. The content.... the core of it... probably won't stray too far away from baseline though. You could say that Marvel has to be Marvel, but that kinda traps them in small box. That's where we're at right now. Step 1: Later. Step 2: Rinse. Step 3: Repeat. Step 4: Pretend nobody notices step 3. That's the Marvel way.

Common sense, clarity, & continuity? PFF!!! That's for less established books. Marvel's got money to print. Cha-ching!

Continuity in the 80s and 90s as actually very good, thanks to Jim Shooter and Mark Gruenwald.

[jackolover]

Dan Slott already let it slip in a debate he was having with John Byrne that the MU is not changing. The only difference is that there is an 8 month time skip that allows the creative teams to forge a new status quo for every hero.

Continuity in general works better when you have fewer cooks in the kitchen. Making a truly cohesive universe is much easier to accomplish when you are only publishing a dozen books. The minute you have to inter-twine 50 books, all written by different writers and all drawn by different artists is going to be the death knell for a truly tight continuity. Even worse is when characters appear in multiple books, books that can have different creative teams AND different editors. The left hand doesn't always know what the right is doing.



Yes and no. I think it was always assumed that the heroes tackling the world ending threat were the ones who were available at the time. If Galactus shows up, it could be assumed that the Avengers and the X-Men were off fighting elsewhere in the country or around the world. They couldn't make it to NYC in time to make a difference. Heck, this was and is a running gag with the Fantastic Four. Every time a heroes needs their help, the F4 was always off on vacation or in space or visiting another dimension, etc.

Then Marvel don't even have to pretend they want to finish Secret Wars if the 616 just starts again. Publish issue 6 of SW, and just stop it. It won't matter if Thanos or Richards beats Doom anyhow, because the 616 hasn't been destroyed, and it didn't need to be reconstructed. Why bother with 3 more issues after next weeks instalment, and save the artists and writers, because the new books are coming out next week. Game over. Let's just forget SW.

[Spideyparker75]

Continuity will always exist in some shape or form even if that only starts post SW. Its impossible to keep track of everything that has happened in the marvel universe. I think its a nigh impossible task.

[resipsaloquitur]

I still don't know what the OP is worried about in this thread. Is it that Secret Wars won't "matter"? Because no major Marvel event has ever "mattered" past maybe a 5 year span. There may be minor elements that remain, like Venom coming out of the original Secret Wars, but nothing sticks.

Civil War: the SHRA hasn't been mentioned in years, the 50 state initiative is dead, and Cap is alive.
World War Hulk: Hulk and the Avengers are buddies again.
Secret Invasion: all Skruls were exposed, Norman's Dark Avengers went under, Wasp is alive again.
Siege: Beats me. Loki came back pretty quick, I guess.
Fear Itself: Man, that thing undid itself in a few months.
Age of Ultron: Whole event undid itself, timequake ripples have pretty much been dealt with. Best impact is that Spider-Man 2099 and Angela are now in the Marvel U.

Seriously, show me an event that had significant, permanent impact beyond "this character was introduced."

[Ravin' Ray]

Dan Slott already let it slip in a debate he was having with John Byrne that the MU is not changing. The only difference is that there is an 8 month time skip that allows the creative teams to forge a new status quo for every hero.

I'm of the mind that on a large scale, the MU won't change much, but on a smaller scale, the changes will be more pronounced.

[Pat Thomas]

Then Marvel don't even have to pretend they want to finish Secret Wars if the 616 just starts again. Publish issue 6 of SW, and just stop it. It won't matter if Thanos or Richards beats Doom anyhow, because the 616 hasn't been destroyed, and it didn't need to be reconstructed. Why bother with 3 more issues after next weeks instalment, and save the artists and writers, because the new books are coming out next week. Game over. Let's just forget SW.

Dude. Just read the stories. They're for entertainment. You don't have to keep up with every book in real time and spend so much time trying to sort
out the entire Marvel Universe after the events of the new comics every week. It's just not important. You seem to be way more worried about order
than you are about whether or not a story is enjoyable to you, and that mindset will keep you focused on what you perceive is "wrong" with every
comic you read. I'm just saying that maybe you need to step back a little and find a way not to become so emotionally involved with these characters
and stories. You can tell me to piss off if you want, but I thought this was stuff you needed to hear. Maybe it'll help you toward enjoying your comics
again someday.

[Abe]

I think the Beatles song applies to some Marvel readers

"There are places I remember
All my life, though some have changed
Some forever not for better
Some have gone and some remain

All these places had their moments
With lovers and friends
I still can recall
Some are dead and some are living
In my life I've loved them all

But of all these friends and lovers
There is no one compared with you
And these memories lose their meaning
When I think of love as something new

Though I know I'll never lose affection
For people and things that went before
I know I'll often stop and think about them
In my life I love you more

Though I know I'll never lose affection
For people and things that went before
I know I'll often stop and think about them
In my life I love you more
In my life I love you more"

Intelligent and beautiful post, Ravin' Ray ! Thanks !

[usgrandprix]

I think part of the appeal of the MCU is its continuity. Hey look, I found irony!

Folks, it can be done. It's just not important to some comics companies for whatever reason. But I forgive those who lament the hit continuity has taken at publishers with such a rich history as Marvel and DC.

[TakoM]

I was one of those kids who learned to read early, by about age 3. In fact, Marvel's comics - in addition to random food labels - were really a large part of what helped me learn. I've been hardcore Marvel since 1978.

I only say all of this because, frankly, continuity has always been a fluid thing. If everything is static and there's nothing beyond what's on the surface then things get boring. That's why it never bothered me so much that Wolverine & Cap had a history that supposedly predated his [Logan's] first appearance. I'm fine with that. What gets me upset is when it all becomes too convoluted, too dense, and none of it aligns.

We know that the start of the modern Marvel Universe was when the likes of Spider-Man, the X-Men, & Fantastic Four first debuted. They all more or less came out around the same time. After that, things get fuzzy and the sliding time scale doesn't slide the same for every character. Let's say that Peter Parker was 15 or 16 when he got bitten. Let's also say that Scott Summers was 18 in X-Men #1. They never explicitly give ages in those first issues so I am doing a little guess work here. Not too far off though. How is it then that Marvel has kept Spidey ~25yo while Cyclops is probably 30-32 by now? That 2-3 year age gap has probably doubled. Similarly, Franklin Richards has probably only aged 1 year in the time it has taken his sister Valeria to age 3. This inconsistent sliding scale is part of what screws with continuity.

Another problem, which is also not new in the least is the revolving door of the afterlife. Dead is supposed to be dead, right? Not at Marvel. You can literally trace the source of the problem to one character. Jean Grey. After the revelation in 1986 that Jean & Phoenix were separate entities and that it was actually the Phoenix entity that died, all bets were off. That kicked off the trend. Death became a joke after that.

The entire New Mutants would literally get killed off one issue only to get resurrected a month later. Marvel would then constantly tease the resurrections of Mary & Richard Parker, as well as Ben & Gwen. Norman Osborn dies pretty definitively only to come back decades later. Bucky's death seemed pretty definitive too until the point that he was brought back because... comics. Because death became a joke, so did the idea of meaningful conflict.

The funny thing about this specific point is that it's the exact sort of thing that Mark Waid & Alex Ross were addressing in the early parts of Kingdom Come. Hero? Villain? It's all the same thing. Alive? Dead? Who cares? Let's fight! Why? Because... comics. The genre is so caught up in its own cliches, tropes, status quos, and iconography that nothing ever happens. There's only the illusion of stuff happening. There's the illusion of conflict. There's the illusion of rivalry. There's the illusion of consequence. There's the illusion of time.

None of it matters because, now that Marvel's no longer a tiny company with nothing to lose, they've got the sacred cow to keep safe. SPIDER-MAN'S DEAD!!!! *SNIFF* WHATEVER WILL WE DO? Oh, wait. Nevermnd. He's coming back next year, right in time for his movie. Curse you, Richards! I hate you. Can I join the Fantastic Four? Sure. Why not. Daddy, how long am I going to stay 8 years old? Forever, son. Nobody wants to read about a 60 year old Mr. Fantastic, y'know. Peter, will you marry me? Sorry, MJ. I wouldn't want to look old and settled down. Can't have that. Who would want to read about Mr. & Mrs Spider-Man. Nobody? That's who.

Marvel doesn't care about continuity. They haven't in nearly 30 years. The 90s made it worse with the gimmicks, the pandering, and the EXTREME!!!!, but it's always been an issue. In the 53 years of modern Marvel, continuity only mattered for barely 20 of them.

The sad truth is that this is the way it is. Marvel will never change things much. They can't afford to. They will remain in a constant state of illusory evolution. Smells like progress. Sold like progress. Even reads like progress. It's just more of the same old thing though. Spider-Man will evolve no more than the likes of Disney's other cash cow, Mickey Mouse. Things looking up for ole Petey these days? Just wait. That Parker luck will kick in eventually and he'll look almost exactly as he did pre-Secret Wars. Bank on it.

This is a large reason why non-DC/Marvel is so popular lately. When a character dies, that's it. When a character gets married, well, there's usually not a pact with the devil to undo things. Non-Marvel characters are allowed to evolve. That's even true in the more established series like Invincible. Mark started off as a gawky teenager. He's now married, lives off world, & has a kid. His supporting cast has changed in some pretty lasting ways over the years too. Even when the book pretends to look back, it's always moving forward. Marvel & DC are the exact opposite. They pretend to move forward, but are always looking back. They're reliving their glory days.

I'm not saying that ANAD Marvel won't be different. We can already see change in the way of a diversified set of characters and published books. The content.... the core of it... probably won't stray too far away from baseline though. You could say that Marvel has to be Marvel, but that kinda traps them in small box. That's where we're at right now. Step 1: Later. Step 2: Rinse. Step 3: Repeat. Step 4: Pretend nobody notices step 3. That's the Marvel way.

Common sense, clarity, & continuity? PFF!!! That's for less established books. Marvel's got money to print. Cha-ching!

Okay short version it is very well known that Marvel can't always keep up things logically but the main positive thing that when you ask the fans what Marvel makes better than DC is this shared continuity. The problems comes around when you look what changes sticks and what not in general it is the negative stuff which sticks and not the positive.

In the end it brakes those characters a lot like you mentioned Peter Parker and Reed Richards I remember I went to count all of those and came around 20th of them and most of them around used anymore in the comic and I know Marvels's continuity is like pudding at the moment alone through what they did with the Inhumans->T-bomb->humans->mutant story.

I can only hope they fix this crap one day. I must say I'm also not a fan of those "we are out of ideas" excuse for twisting stories and characters. Marvel had a lot of material which they could use over the years for new stories like: Franklin's earth/dimensions , NuWorld, the ship of the apocalypse twins/celestial. I would say a lot of stuff from Remender first Uncanny Avenger arc.

I think there is a lot of stuff for innovative stories the problem when you want to make progressive stories you need stories which really change the status Q and not heroes which hit their others faces. This problem always remember me of Stargate at some point the authors said their also "we are out of ideas" and so we start to tell darker stories but the story which most of the viewers wanted to see they never produced meaning the stargate program goes public on earth in its own universe. They teased it a lot but never done it , the point is with such change you also change the environment and with this the possibilities which stories you can tell.