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  1. #16
    Legendary Member daBronzeBomma's Avatar
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    Because it's a dumb "specific weakness" to have in the first place. It's so broad and so generic and so undefined ... and so abused.

    It's almost as dumb as a character having a specific weakness to "Science" or "technology".

    What good storytelling has come out of Superman being particular vulnerable to this undefinable element? None that I can think of, outside of Mxyzptlk (which forces Superman to use his mind to come out on top, which I love).

    "Any doofus waving a magic wand can take out Superman because he's vulnerable to all magic"

    is an actual argument I have heard before when Magic Character X would kick Superman's ass.

    Magic has no rules, no boundaries and therefore makes for a stupid weakness.

    For Pete's sake, just channel all that into old-school Red Kryptonite and call it a day.

  2. #17
    Senior Member ManSinha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manofsteel1979 View Post
    I agree that unless a spell is specifically for Superman, that he shouldn't be rendered useless.

    i think it comes back to lazy writing and using easy tricks without thinking critically.
    I would agree with that sentiment - indeed a significant portion of the state of affairs the Superman character finds itself in can be laid at the feet of poor writing and poorer imagination

  3. #18
    Fantastic Member jimmy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daBronzeBomma View Post
    Because it's a dumb "specific weakness" to have in the first place. It's so broad and so generic and so undefined ... and so abused.

    It's almost as dumb as a character having a specific weakness to "Science" or "technology".

    What good storytelling has come out of Superman being particular vulnerable to this undefinable element? None that I can think of, outside of Mxyzptlk (which forces Superman to use his mind to come out on top, which I love).

    "Any doofus waving a magic wand can take out Superman because he's vulnerable to all magic"

    is an actual argument I have heard before when Magic Character X would kick Superman's ass.

    Magic has no rules, no boundaries and therefore makes for a stupid weakness.

    For Pete's sake, just channel all that into old-school Red Kryptonite and call it a day.
    Some Excellent and salient points!!

  4. #19
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    It shouldn't go away. He shouldn't be immune. He just shouldn't be any more vulnerable to it than anyone else of a non-magical nature, is all. That was the issue I had in the past, acting like he had some sort of enhanced vulnerability to it. One, its never explained why a Kryptonian would be extra vulnerable to magic, and two, he already has that type of weakness in Kryptonite. I don't think many fans want a complete immunity though. At least I don't. That makes even less sense than an extra special weakness.
    This.

    I have no issue with a powerful spell of raw, magical energy bypassing the majority of Clark's natural durability and hitting him hard enough to really hurt him. Its the exact same reaction you'd see in someone like J'onn or Hal Jordan, and it makes some sense. What does not make sense is when Clark is written as being especially weak to it, so that he's crippled by low and middle level magic effects that other characters who are not explicitly "weak" to magic shrug off.

    The weakness to magic has often been used as a way for lesser characters to get a leg up on him, and its the very definition of lazy writing. If Superman can bench press the planet and fight Darkseid to a stand still, but John Constantine can murder him like a helpless child, there's something very wrong happening.

    Its not the weakness itself, its how its often used. I feel the same way about red sun radiation. Does it completely take away his powers instantly? Does it slowly drain his powers? Does it simply mean his body can't replace the stored solar energy as he uses it, eventually leaving his "gas tank" empty? Depending on the story being told at the time, it does all three (sometimes all at once). There's nothing wrong with the weakness (to magic or red sun radiation) in theory, but the execution has been pretty terrible as often as not.

    Kryptonite is also used in equally variable ways (which I hate), but kryptonite, I feel, gets a pass because its The weakness, and different amounts with different potency can, to a degree, explain how a small sliver can bring him to his knees but a chunk the size of a heart only puts him in extreme pain.

    Past that, there's the fact that the guy has three weaknesses, whereas almost every other character in DC has, at most, one (and most of them have been written out). For a character fighting the image of a bygone artifact of last century, the last thing he needs is more ways to get punked.
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  5. #20
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    I'd be more accepting of the idea if they went to the trouble to make up an intriguing explanation as to why a Kryptonian might be extra vulnerable. If they could do that, then I'd give it a bit more leeway even though I'd still argue that Kryptonite is enough in regards to a bonafide crippling weakness.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

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  6. #21
    Senior Member ManSinha's Avatar
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    I would like scenarios where his powers give him an advantage - such as a foe throws a spell or incantation but his speed or freeze breath can even the odds

  7. #22
    Fantastic Member Castiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBatmanFan05 View Post
    Some write it as that. Some not.

    I'm fine with the magic weakness. Like anything, it can be abused though.
    True I personally hate people calling magic science they are complete opposites. I hope one day people stop writing magic as another form of science. I prefer to think of science as a weaker and inferior form of magic.

  8. #23
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    "Magic" by the UK band Pilot had its greatest success here in Canada, hitting no. 1 on the Canadian singles charts on July 19th, 1975. Never believe it's not so!

    Earlier that month, Superman was flying around the Statue of Liberty, with a little boy on his back and if you hold LIMITED COLLECTORS' EDITION C-38 up to your ear, you can hear them both singing, "I love a sunny day, dream of far away."

    Oh ho ho, it's magic, you know. Superman knows. Never believe it's not so!
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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimishim12 View Post
    Magic is basically science in a different language.
    Quote Originally Posted by Castiel View Post
    True I personally hate people calling magic science they are complete opposites. I hope one day people stop writing magic as another form of science. I prefer to think of science as a weaker and inferior form of magic.
    Not if the occult exists, it ins't.
    Science as something indistingushable from magic is just Sufficiently Advanced Science - stuff that looks magical because its so outside your scientific paradigm that it looks utterly alien and outside your context - a AK47 Assault Rifle is just five centuries of development on muskets, but a computer would be pretty alien to somebody from the 1500s. Then we're just facing Abra Kadabra and you should police yourself in case you start to feel like you're being turned into a puppet - that's the best way of figuring you are being turned into a puppet. Green Lanterns and New Gods are other examples of Clarketech in the DCU. Mr. Mxyztplmk seems to straddle the line, sometimes he's just using other-dimensional Clarketech, but the others he's actually using magic. He's functionally near-omnipotent, but he (and other 5th-dimensionals too) seems to have certain rules he has to follow, or The Presence sends someone (generally The Spectre) to breathe down his neck.

    Science is about controlling and exploiting the natural, physical laws of the universe. Science is replicable, can be mass-manufractured and often used by common people, or at least normal beings with enough training.

    Magic as something different from Science (as is the rule in the DCU) is about thwarting and changing physical laws. Magic is non-replicable, the providence of few, often of special blood (comparisons with nobility come to mind). It also often has spiritual repercussions - shooting a gun doesn't make me evil, but drawing upon the power of Trigon might corrupt me, even for noble and selfish ends.

    Magic can do things that Science can, but Science is generally more reliable.

    The CRPG Arcanum by Troika had the best definitions of magic vs science all around. Y'all need to play more Arcanum. Great game.

  10. #25
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerboy View Post
    His "Magic weakness" is immensely inconsistent. I think that has a lot to do with it, that and the fact that it was created, like Kryptonite, during a time when he was so much more powerful than everybody else that he had to have some glaring weaknesses. So the cause seems long since gone but the effect is still there, the weakness still exists.
    This is my opinion as well. Also, Magic seems WAY to prevalent in DCU. Having a weakness to magic should only bother superman once a decade in comics.. but somehow everyone has a magic sword or hammer or shield or lightning anymore... It's like handing out kryptonite bullets to everyone. When it becomes too common, it gets boring.

    It seems too common that writers can't decide what the weakness actually means. sometimes the swords cut through him like butter... sometimes he just 'feels' it, unlike a normal weapon... Consistency is the key.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    This is my opinion as well. Also, Magic seems WAY to prevalent in DCU. Having a weakness to magic should only bother superman once a decade in comics.. but somehow everyone has a magic sword or hammer or shield or lightning anymore... It's like handing out kryptonite bullets to everyone. When it becomes too common, it gets boring.

    It seems too common that writers can't decide what the weakness actually means. sometimes the swords cut through him like butter... sometimes he just 'feels' it, unlike a normal weapon... Consistency is the key.
    Define "everyone". Because I'm pretty sure I've seen Kryptonite and Red Sun Radiation pop up in Superman comics than magic.

  12. #27
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    Magic is an open-ended concept. Some fictions give it restrictive rules, while other fictions allow anything at all to happen. The thing is everyone is making it up--although some writers might consult sources on magic beliefs.

    It's become commonplace for each fiction to show the process. But I have to say that I don't like this a lot of the time. It's too finicky--I get impatient with all this pussy-footing around with preparing arcane spells, yadda yadda. I get it--there are practical considerations to how magic works. But when there's a car zooming down the highway, I don't expect exposition on what gasoline it uses, where it was manufactured, if it passed the latest air-care inspection. None of that improves the car chase---unless it's a telling bit of information for the action.

    When you've got a publishing company like DC with 80 years of history and a catalogue of stories by thousands of writers--each creating varieties of magic--if you get too much into the rules of how they all work, there's going to be a lot of paradoxical uses. Superman shouldn't need to be responsible for that.

    And getting rid of magic is ridiculous. You would have to retire some of Superman's best adversaries. Then Superman could never interact with a large segment of the DC universe. While giving Superman an immunity to magic just increases his power levels immensely. He would be the one hero in the universe you would want in any fight, because he would have a power that even other magic heroes don't have--the ability to withstand something not science based, but beyond the logic of any science. What in Superman's origin could possibly give him that ability?
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  13. #28
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Define "everyone". Because I'm pretty sure I've seen Kryptonite and Red Sun Radiation pop up in Superman comics than magic.
    Maybe they are doing more with it now then.. Honesly, I don't remember the last time I heard anyone use the Red Sun weakness.


    There was a time where everything had a more supernatural bent to it in the 90's. Everything from Swamp Thing, to Spectre to Zatanna, to Alan Scott all the way down to Wonder Woman's weapons and Vampires and Werewolves.

    When the base story is that Superman's skin is bulletproof under the yellow sun yet can surprisingly get bitten by a random vampire 'BECAUSE HE's MAGIC!!!' I tend to throw the book across the room. (Of course he's also concentrated sunlight... so the vampire then exploded!!) >.<

    There was a time when the magic weakness was so rarely used... that casual fans tended to forget all about it. Everything was luthor using red sun or kryptonite... which was tied directly into his origin. They were weakness's designed to exploit the 'alien' concept. Things that were tied directly to the home planet.

    Magic?? Doesn't really have anything to do with Krypton. It's just sort of out there. Mxyptlyk was the only one I remember being 'magical' in the old days.. and he didn't really try to kill him. No magic bullets or swords. May turn him into a donkey or gorilla... but that didn't change his bulletproofness.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    Maybe they are doing more with it now then.. Honesly, I don't remember the last time I heard anyone use the Red Sun weakness.


    There was a time where everything had a more supernatural bent to it in the 90's. Everything from Swamp Thing, to Spectre to Zatanna, to Alan Scott all the way down to Wonder Woman's weapons and Vampires and Werewolves.

    When the base story is that Superman's skin is bulletproof under the yellow sun yet can surprisingly get bitten by a random vampire 'BECAUSE HE's MAGIC!!!' I tend to throw the book across the room. (Of course he's also concentrated sunlight... so the vampire then exploded!!) >.<

    There was a time when the magic weakness was so rarely used... that casual fans tended to forget all about it. Everything was luthor using red sun or kryptonite... which was tied directly into his origin. They were weakness's designed to exploit the 'alien' concept. Things that were tied directly to the home planet.

    Magic?? Doesn't really have anything to do with Krypton. It's just sort of out there. Mxyptlyk was the only one I remember being 'magical' in the old days.. and he didn't really try to kill him. No magic bullets or swords. May turn him into a donkey or gorilla... but that didn't change his bulletproofness.

    A lot of stuff in Superman doesn't tie back to Krypton, tbf.

  15. #30
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    I really dont understand how magic is any more effective against superman as a nlf, since superman has resisted it and even no sell it like most forces of the universe from the physical reality. So does that mean supes is magic to.

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