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  1. #31
    Astonishing Member Doctor Know's Avatar
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    I don't think people understand the context of Supeman's vulnerability to magic.

    It is not that Superman is "weak" against magic. It's that Superman's powers provide no protection from magic. That's how it supposed to be interpreted.

    You look at the magical character's Superman has clashed with in the past, and you really get a sense that it is the enchantments to conventional attacks, that hurt Superman.


    We know that normal fire can't hurt Supes, but Demon Flames from Etrigan can.



    We know that lightning can't hurt Supes, either natural or from Livewire. However supernatural lightning has sent Superman flying and burned him.





    The same thing goes for supernatually strong characters. Such Wonder Woman, Captain Marvel, Atlas, Thor and Hercules.




    This was brought up on John Byrne's site a few years ago. I believe Byrne was ripping Buisek for having Thor beat Superman, even though Thor had Mjlonir. Since the hammer is enchanted and Thor was wielding it, it should've been like two body builders fighting but one of them has a hammer. Byrne said the same thing applies to spells from Harry Potter; such as Aveda Kadava. Since the spell is literally a "killing spell". It wouldn't wound Supes, it would kill him. Because that's what is does to everyone else.

  2. #32
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    Have recent stories played up Superman's vulnerability to magic?

    I know in the '60s--expository captions would list Superman's weaknesses--Green K, red sun, magic. But after that, I don't recall it being something that was singled out as a weakness. And, of course, when he encountered certain supernatural beings their powers worked. Superman didn't have a magic umbrella to stop their power.

    But why are readers so concerned about this now?

    The way I see it--for the sake of the story, you don't want Captain Marvel or Wonder Woman to have the advantage over Superman in a fight, just because they derive their powers from supernatural forces and Superman derives his powers from scientific forces. Whatever power is in their tank, that doesn't figure in a fist fight. It's only when WW uses her magic lasso that Superman is vulnerable to magic--because the lasso actually uses magic on its captive.

    Even though I see nothing wrong with really super-powerful characters, I don't think Superman should be able to withstand everything. He has to have some limits. He shouldn't be able to withstand huge gravitational forces or electro-magnetic radiation at the nth degree. It makes him too far beyond being human to actually exist. So Superman shouldn't be able to withstand the power of the Spectre, either.

    In fact, if there is no limit to Superman's power, how does he get rebooted? If nothing can destroy Superman--then the pre-Crisis Superman should have continued to exist, despite his universe being destroyed, because his power was limitless.

    If for no other reason than it makes the comics easier to write and easier to read, there has to be some restrictions put on the Man of Steel.
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  3. #33
    Mighty Member adkal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    Have recent stories played up Superman's vulnerability to magic?
    By 'recent' do you mean since the relaunch? If so, then, yes, recent stories have played up Superman's vulnerability - two examples are the teeth incident in JL Dark and the 'just standing in this place is killing him' in a back-up story in Batman.

    I know in the '60s--expository captions would list Superman's weaknesses--Green K, red sun, magic. But after that, I don't recall it being something that was singled out as a weakness. And, of course, when he encountered certain supernatural beings their powers worked. Superman didn't have a magic umbrella to stop their power.

    But why are readers so concerned about this now?
    Personally, my concern has always been with regards to the inconsistency - that, in turn, has led to the silly notion that some have that Superman would fall to his knees at a mere card trick, 'cos "magic".

    The way I see it--for the sake of the story, you don't want Captain Marvel or Wonder Woman to have the advantage over Superman in a fight, just because they derive their powers from supernatural forces and Superman derives his powers from scientific forces. Whatever power is in their tank, that doesn't figure in a fist fight. It's only when WW uses her magic lasso that Superman is vulnerable to magic--because the lasso actually uses magic on its captive.
    Nah, they can have 'advantages' - their speed, for example, might not have the destructive nature that Superman's does and work around friction the way the speed force does.

    Even though I see nothing wrong with really super-powerful characters, I don't think Superman should be able to withstand everything. He has to have some limits. He shouldn't be able to withstand huge gravitational forces or electro-magnetic radiation at the nth degree. It makes him too far beyond being human to actually exist. So Superman shouldn't be able to withstand the power of the Spectre, either.
    He's been spaghetti-fied, had his body breakdown on a cellular level through radiation poisoning, and been turned to salt by The Spectre. All part of being the guy he is

    In fact, if there is no limit to Superman's power, how does he get rebooted? If nothing can destroy Superman--then the pre-Crisis Superman should have continued to exist, despite his universe being destroyed, because his power was limitless.

    If for no other reason than it makes the comics easier to write and easier to read, there has to be some restrictions put on the Man of Steel.
    The 'restrictions' should be consistent, though. If a werewolf's claws are able to tear through a car then those same claws should be able to shred Batman's armour, especially since that armour has been shown to be cut by Catwoman's claws - and if a vampire is said to be three times faster than an average human then it shouldn't be able to speed-blitz Superman - it doesn't make sense.

  4. #34
    Mighty Member Johnny Thunders!'s Avatar
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    John Byrne, love his art work on Superman, but I have never agreed with his ideas about Superman. To me, magic is an energy or force, Mxyzptlk and the Spectre, they treat the world like silly putty, so Superman is clearly outmatched in terms of power. Somebody else though, they have to have power, skill, and the ability to survive a meeting with Superman. Getting hit from a spell by Etrigan should definitely be different than being hit by a novice. Thor and Superman, if anyone is able to stop Mjolnir with one hand in a fight, it's Superman. If you don't get that, I think you are missing something about the character. Superman always steps up when facing the impossible. (Aren't Captain Marvel and Wonder Woman magic weapons, everything about them is a magic hammer?)
    Last edited by Johnny Thunders!; 10-04-2015 at 07:16 AM.

  5. #35
    Mighty Member adkal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Thunders! View Post
    As to John Byrne, love his art work of Superman, but I have never agreed with his ideas about Superman. To me, magic is an energy or force, Mxyzptlk and the Spectre, they treat the world like silly putty, so Superman is clearly outmatched in terms of power.
    Most certainly.

    (Although Superman-Prime... )

    Somebody else though, they have to have power, skill, and the ability to survive a meeting with Superman. Getting hit from a spell by Etrigan should definitely be different than being hit by a novice.
    And it depends on the spell. If it's one that 'sears all human flesh' then it shouldn't do anything to Superman or Ace the Bat-Hound; if it's a spell that makes all females laugh then it wouldn't affect Superman, Batman, or Ace the Bat-Hound; if it's a spell that knocks back everything within 50 ft of it then it will knock back Superman, Batman, and Ace the Bat-Hound (provided they're within 50 ft of the blast radius).

    As to Thor and Superman, if anyone is able to stop Mjolnir with one hand in a fight, it's Superman. If you don't get that, I think you are missing something about Superman. (Aren't Captain Marvel and Wonder Woman magic weapons, everything about them is a magic hammer?)
    I have a view almost no one likes with regards to Superman and Mjolnir: I'm of the view that he should be able to lift the hammer with ease, just not use its magicks. The enchantment is about 'the power of Thor' being granted to the wielder if they are (Nordically-)worthy - an enchantment that by-passes the immense weight of Mjolnir when needed and safeguards the various magicks of Mjolnir at all times (well, other than if Odin were to take the enchantment away).

    One of the problems some people have with that is that Marvel's depiction of Mjolnir has varied - and they even have, for a long time, listed the weight of Mjolnir as being a little over 42lbs - which, clearly, isn't that heavy - and yet the older stories (ignoring the Nordic mythology) repeatedly made a point of highlighting Thor's strength, and the flashback tales had Odin telling Thor that he'll eventually be strong enough to lift the hammer (the image has Thor then being able to lift the handle, with Loki sneaking a look).

    Of course, Odin isn't stupid (well...not in certain regards), so an aspect of the (unspoken) elements of the enchantment(s) protects the world (and beyond) from annihilation event that would result from Thor dropping Mjolnir (like he did in the second Avengers movie...).

    Anyway, like I said, I'm of the view that Superman should be able to pick up Mjolnir but only be able to use it as a blunt weapon (which would be so destructive!).

  6. #36
    Mighty Member Johnny Thunders!'s Avatar
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    Absolutely and make no doubt, Pa Kents number one son leaves Asgard with his own hammer blessed by Odin himself, a weapon of last resort in the Fortress of Solitudes hall of mementos.

  7. #37
    Astonishing Member FishyZombie's Avatar
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    I don't think a spell should totally take him down in one shot like a kryptonite bullet might, but he should be a vulnerable to it as anyone else.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Thunders! View Post
    To me, magic is an energy or force, Mxyzptlk and the Spectre, they treat the world like silly putty, so Superman is clearly outmatched in terms of power.
    The classic Mxy stories were puzzle stories and that was their charm. Superman is set with a puzzle he has to solve--that being how to get Mxy to say his name backwards and thus return to the 5th dimension for another 90 days--at which instant everything returns to normal as if it never happened.

    So the fun is in seeing Superman figure out how to do this and set a trap for Mxy. The super-powers are merely the tools by which Superman can build his elaborate trap--he might need a super-size pair of tongs, so having super-strength and heat vision helps him make those.

    The other fun thing is that Mxy can totally screw up Superman's world and his continuity and it's all fair game. So Mr. Myzptlk is the gift that just keeps on giving.

    However, it doesn't make a lot of sense that Superman is so desperate to get rid of Mxy--since it doesn't matter in the end what the imp does, because it will always go back to normal. I would've liked a story where Mxy does all his magic and Superman just takes the day off and doesn't do a thing to stop him. Maybe I'm forgetting and there is such a story. But Superman could leave Mxy alone for the next ten years and he would be fine because everything would still return to how it was before Mxy arrived.

    I think the main reasons that Superman tried so hard to get rid of Mxy were 1) The imp did things that really really bugged Superman--and in that way he was Superman's Joker--and 2) Superman enjoyed the challenge and couldn't help but hatch plans to get rid of the rascal.

    But my take is that Mr. Mxyzptlk is one of the many proofs that classic Superman is insane. The magical imp, like red K and other unaccountable things, are all the products of his super-mind. His unconscious is capable of making his delusions real--or at least very concrete as delusions go. Superman is that abandoned baby in a spaceship, hurtling through the void without a parent to soothe him. He has never resolved the ghosts that haunt him and yet has the kind of latent powers to make his nightmares and horrors manifest.
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    The classic Mxy stories were puzzle stories and that was their charm. Superman is set with a puzzle he has to solve--that being how to get Mxy to say his name backwards and thus return to the 5th dimension for another 90 days--at which instant everything returns to normal as if it never happened.

    So the fun is in seeing Superman figure out how to do this and set a trap for Mxy. The super-powers are merely the tools by which Superman can build his elaborate trap--he might need a super-size pair of tongs, so having super-strength and heat vision helps him make those.

    The other fun thing is that Mxy can totally screw up Superman's world and his continuity and it's all fair game. So Mr. Myzptlk is the gift that just keeps on giving.

    However, it doesn't make a lot of sense that Superman is so desperate to get rid of Mxy--since it doesn't matter in the end what the imp does, because it will always go back to normal. I would've liked a story where Mxy does all his magic and Superman just takes the day off and doesn't do a thing to stop him. Maybe I'm forgetting and there is such a story. But Superman could leave Mxy alone for the next ten years and he would be fine because everything would still return to how it was before Mxy arrived.
    It was the Silver Age so we didn't get all grim and gritty, but was it everything that was reset or only that all the 5th Dimensional magic effects were undone? I mean if Myxzptlk cast a spell that made Jimmy a giant I know when the imp left Jimmy shrunk back to normal size, but if Jimmy had stomped on a car accidentally was the car restored? If the driver of said car had jumped out to avoid being stomped and been hit by another car- was he resurrected? I know it wasn't that Myx appeared on Monday so when he was returned home we all went back to that point on Monday, so is it possible that Superman still had to stop the tricks because there could still be consequences that wouldn't reverse and the longer Myx was active the more of them there would be?

  10. #40
    Amazing Member Marvel Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    However, it doesn't make a lot of sense that Superman is so desperate to get rid of Mxy--since it doesn't matter in the end what the imp does, because it will always go back to normal. I would've liked a story where Mxy does all his magic and Superman just takes the day off and doesn't do a thing to stop him. Maybe I'm forgetting and there is such a story. But Superman could leave Mxy alone for the next ten years and he would be fine because everything would still return to how it was before Mxy arrived.
    I would recommend reading Superman Adventures #26 by Millar and Amancio...

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvel Man View Post
    I would recommend reading Superman Adventures #26 by Millar and Amancio...
    I know I have it in a box somewhere, but therein lies the problem.
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  12. #42
    Senior Member ManSinha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    The way I see it--for the sake of the story, you don't want Captain Marvel or Wonder Woman to have the advantage over Superman in a fight, just because they derive their powers from supernatural forces and Superman derives his powers from scientific forces. Whatever power is in their tank, that doesn't figure in a fist fight. It's only when WW uses her magic lasso that Superman is vulnerable to magic--because the lasso actually uses magic on its captive.

    If for no other reason than it makes the comics easier to write and easier to read, there has to be some restrictions put on the Man of Steel.
    Both Captain Marvel and Wonder Woman are written as near Superman level characters in terms of strength and power and they, to the best of my knowledge - have no such weaknesses - why then, must Superman? I would go so far as to say - remove all the weaknesses except Kryptonite and make that element as rare as it should be - sometimes it would appear that Luthor had access to a county full of the stuff - the way he seems to procure it at will

  13. #43
    Astonishing Member Doctor Know's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adkal View Post

    I have a view almost no one likes with regards to Superman and Mjolnir: I'm of the view that he should be able to lift the hammer with ease, just not use its magicks. The enchantment is about 'the power of Thor' being granted to the wielder if they are (Nordically-)worthy - an enchantment that by-passes the immense weight of Mjolnir when needed and safeguards the various magicks of Mjolnir at all times (well, other than if Odin were to take the enchantment away).

    One of the problems some people have with that is that Marvel's depiction of Mjolnir has varied - and they even have, for a long time, listed the weight of Mjolnir as being a little over 42lbs - which, clearly, isn't that heavy - and yet the older stories (ignoring the Nordic mythology) repeatedly made a point of highlighting Thor's strength, and the flashback tales had Odin telling Thor that he'll eventually be strong enough to lift the hammer (the image has Thor then being able to lift the handle, with Loki sneaking a look).

    Of course, Odin isn't stupid (well...not in certain regards), so an aspect of the (unspoken) elements of the enchantment(s) protects the world (and beyond) from annihilation event that would result from Thor dropping Mjolnir (like he did in the second Avengers movie...).

    Anyway, like I said, I'm of the view that Superman should be able to pick up Mjolnir but only be able to use it as a blunt weapon (which would be so destructive!).
    I don't think Supes should be allowed to lift Mjlonir by pure strength alone. In the Marvelverse, you have megatons like the Hulks (there are several now), Sentry, Hercules, Gladiator, Wonder Man, Juggernaut, Colossus etc; who are all as strong or nearly as strong as Thor. If the hammer could be lifted on strength alone, there would be dozens of characters who could lift it. We look at the current Thor (Thordis) and she didn't need super strength to lift it.

    Admittedly, Marvel has done a poor job defining how the enchantment to lift Mjlolnir works, and what constitutes "worthiness".

    In the JLA/Avengers crossover, Supes couldn't lift Mjolnir, because he's not worthy.



    WW lifted it and got the power of Thor.


    and of course Jane Foster Thor(dis)




    And all these others who have lifted Mjolnir.
    http://quick-stop-clerk.tumblr.com/p...hy-jane-foster

    I mean, it's magic. So I figure, that they figure, they can make up the rules as they go along. But I don't think pure strength should allow people to lift Mjolnir. We wouldn't want people like Terrax or Thanos getting their hands on the hammer, would we?

  14. #44
    Mighty Member adkal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Char Aznable View Post
    I don't think Supes should be allowed to lift Mjlonir by pure strength alone. In the Marvelverse, you have megatons like the Hulks (there are several now), Sentry, Hercules, Gladiator, Wonder Man, Juggernaut, Colossus etc; who are all as strong or nearly as strong as Thor. If the hammer could be lifted on strength alone, there would be dozens of characters who could lift it. We look at the current Thor (Thordis) and she didn't need super strength to lift it.
    That's where an element of the enchantment comes into play - the hammer won't budge if there is 'ill-intent' in the lifter. 'Ill-intent' has a wide meaning for the enchantment - it's why Cap couldn't lift it in the movie (but it did move a little), as his reason for lifting was for competition. (Doesn't generally work for Thor or Odin in that way because, y'know, magic )

    Personally, I don't think Colossus or Wonder Man are in Thor's weight class. Hercules certainly is, but I reckon Odin (wholly aware of the Greek pantheon) protected Asgardian weapons against Olympian use, especially against the other All-Father and his offspring [insert wink (CBR counting emoticons as 'images' ruins the flow at times...*sigh*)]


    Admittedly, Marvel has done a poor job defining how the enchantment to lift Mjlolnir works, and what constitutes "worthiness".

    In the JLA/Avengers crossover, Supes couldn't lift Mjolnir, because he's not worthy.
    Nah, that was Thor trolling him

    It was a 'sod the fact you're stronger than me, I can still stop you from lifting' moment.

    WW lifted it and got the power of Thor.
    Because, despite her heritage, she wasn't an Olympian the One-Eyed-All-Father knew about when he enchanted it...and she was worthy.

    and of course Jane Foster Thor(dis)
    Worthiness, no?

    And all these others who have lifted Mjolnir.
    http://quick-stop-clerk.tumblr.com/p...hy-jane-foster

    I mean, it's magic. So I figure, that they figure, they can make up the rules as they go along. But I don't think pure strength should allow people to lift Mjolnir. We wouldn't want people like Terrax or Thanos getting their hands on the hammer, would we?
    Oh, absolutely - but that's also why Ultraman wouldn't be able to lift it while various other incarnations of Superman would

    The enchantment has many unspoken elements - Odin's quite crafty like that.

  15. #45
    Astonishing Member Doctor Know's Avatar
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    ^ So crafty that not even Odin himself can lift Mjolnir now.

    Haha

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