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  1. #31
    Amazing Member Emcee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by juggalord View Post
    First, don't try to second guess my intent. That's just rude. I'm a straight forward guy. There's no hidden agenda with me. It's not as if I'm secretly covered in DC tattoos and am rooting for Marvel to fail. I'm hardcore Marvel, which is why I'm frustrated by this event. I've weathered worse, but still.

    Second, there are multiple reasons why I don't simply drop the book.....
    You nailed it again. I think this is how lots of folks feel, me included.

  2. #32
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by juggalord View Post
    First, don't try to second guess my intent. That's just rude. I'm a straight forward guy. There's no hidden agenda with me. It's not as if I'm secretly covered in DC tattoos and am rooting for Marvel to fail. I'm hardcore Marvel, which is why I'm frustrated by this event. I've weathered worse, but still.

    Second, there are multiple reasons why I don't simply drop the book.

    1. This deep into the core event and its associated minis, it makes little sense to not finish. Ever the eternal optimist, I'm hoping that the back third of the mini picks up the pace, gets better, and justifies the event's existence.
    2. I understand that it'll finish after ANAD starts, but I don't want to be left with a lingering feeling that I missed something every time it gets mentioned, however incidentally.
    3. I buy just about everything Marvel. Always have. Probably always will. Jumping ship would leave a weird little itch in my brain.

    Third, the duration of the event is inconsequential. It could be three months instead of eight and I'd be just as irked. I'd expect that my reasoning would be obvious enough, but I'll briefly reiterate.

    1. The core mini has thus far been poorly scheduled, planned, & executed. With literally years of advance notice, there should be no reason for repeated delays, added issues, or anything other than an epic story.
    2. Dumping nearly every single ongoing in favor of 7-8 months of continuity & consequence free books stinks. Fun or not, few will have any bearing on ANAD. We were promised that every mini would have a piece of the final puzzle and that they'd matter. Does it seem that way, atm?
    3. From a writing point of view, an eight month jump after the event feels like sloppy storytelling. The aftermath is half of the story. Jumping straight to the new status quo might provide a quick entry point for new readers, but it sends the message that the core event was just an excuse for change.
    4. When it comes to hype, few events had as much as Secret Wars. With at least two years of creative foreplay, Secret Wars has failed to feel equally as epic. Years of hype for 9 issues of core story and hundreds more of inconsequential, unrelated filler.
    5. Does continuity matter anymore? I keep thinking about that when reading this mini. The tie-in issues are a nice tribute to days gone by, but the overwhelming feeling is that the event and the long term payoff might just feel like a giant middle finger and the message, "Continuity schmontinuity."

    I'm was never against Secret Wars. I'm still not. I'm hoping that ANAD will make me say, "Holy sh**! That ending must've been great. Things really ARE different and fresh." Appearances to the contrary, I'm still fairly optimistic. I'm just going by the evidence currently available to me. This is what came before. This is what's happening now. How does it make me feel? How does it sit with me? That's all I'm voicing.

    Enjoyment can be subjective. I won't argue that. Momentary storytelling can be fun. Sitting back and enjoying the ride has its merits. I won't argue that either. As a means to achieving a long term goal, I'm still not seeing where all of these "puzzle pieces" fit just yet. There are so few cues that little of what's being done feels justified, apart from using monetary gain as a reason.

    At least with the tie-in issues, Marvel's just throwing stuff at the wall and hoping that some stuff sticks, imo. That's shameless. If it sells... integrate. If it doesn't... it never happened. I don't think that there's any so-called "puzzle" for these pieces to fit. Marvel just went in with a picture of what they wanted ANAD to look like and then tossed in an event, countless minis, and an 8 month jump to flimsily excuse it all.
    I really don't have the time to answer all your post but the reason why I thought it was a little disingenuous is that you're saying on one hand you're pro-Marvel (OK) and you are going through with it,etc but on the other you say "This event was supposed to be epic and unforgettable. So far, it's been pretty pedestrian and unmemorable." I'd say that is pretty much an expression of disappointment. If you are saying it's unmemorable, Why are you reading it? Sure, you go on with a lot of reasonings but at the end of the day, you have to decide if it's worth it or not. You don't have to read anything you don't like yet you feel you must. I went to the Secret Wars panel in Chicago this summer and they said flat out you do not have to read all the tie ins. It was up to the fans to buy the ones they like. This was also stated in interviews. I tried out some and some I saw to the finish, some I didn't

    I guess I am getting a mixed feelings out of your posts because of the litany of things you wrote about that displeased you. I guess I just don't get that worked up about because I have other diversions/hobbies, etc. As for worrying about planning and production, etc. sometimes its best not to have Toto not to pull back the curtain and see the Wizard at work. There was no internet around when I read comics way back when and I think sometimes we were better off.

  3. #33
    Junior Member juggalord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    I'd say that is pretty much an expression of disappointment.
    I can be pro-Marvel and be disappointed by this event. They're not mutually exclusive. I was greatly disappointed by the Clone Saga and Heroes Reborn. I may not have loved those stories or their long/short term effects, but that didn't taint my love for the characters or the types of stories that Marvel generally pumps out.

    Sure, you go on with a lot of reasonings but at the end of the day, you have to decide if it's worth it or not.
    I jumped into this story with a positive vibe. The sale pitch was good. Marvel, Hickman, et al really sold it hard. They had me convinced that this was the real deal. Am I experiencing some "buyer's remorse" now that I'm in the thick of it? Sure. However, a mini isn't just one issue. It's a collection of issues. I am very displeased thus far. HOWEVER, I legitimately want to see if they make good on their word and deliver.

    Hickman's a slow burn writer. I'll say it again. His stuff usually pays off after multiple issues. That's why, even though I'm miffed and don't yet see the big picture, or if one even exists, I'm willing to ride it out. If Hickman's true to form and makes good on his word... All the better for readers. If he doesn't and the entire event finishes off in the same manner as the first 2/3, I'll be even more upset.

    Marvel has never attempted an event of this scope before. Risk big? Win big.... or Lose big. I'm rooting for Marvel to win big here. It's just been a really bumpy and unconvincing ride thus far. What has gone on so far and what it all means so far is what's disconcerting. Things could change on dime. My feelings could become more enthusiastic & positive. I'm hoping that they do. I really am. I hate going "ugh" and "meh" as much as you hate hearing it.

    and they said flat out you do not have to read all the tie ins.
    TBH, having actually read all of them, you don't even have to read most of them. So very few appear to factor into ANAD or what comes next, which makes their existence feel that much more like mindless filler.

    FWIW, you say that I'm sending a mixed message, but so is Marvel. In one breath, they tell you that every tie-in has a piece of the larger puzzle and that they exist for a reason that's important to ANAD. I'm not making that up. That's been reported here on CBR a few times before. In the very next breath, they tell you that you don't have to read all of the tie-ins, which makes them feel as if they're worth less.

    I understand what they're saying. Don't get me wrong. They're suggesting that the bulk of the SW story is contained within the actual mini itself, unlike other past events which required you to read more just to get a fuller picture.

    However, taking these two comments together, it almost feels like a contradiction. "They'll all matter, but you don't need to buy them all." Well, if they'll all matter, shouldn't I be reading them all anyway? Having read them, they don't all matter. Most don't, in fact. So, maybe they were right in suggesting that we only need to read some, but they were way wrong in saying that they're all of some significance and consequence.

    I get what they're saying. I do. That doesn't mean that it's still not a bunch of double talk.

    As for worrying about planning and production, etc. sometimes its best not to have Toto not to pull back the curtain and see the Wizard at work. There was no internet around when I read comics way back when and I think sometimes we were better off.
    I'm 41. There weren't even home computers when I first started reading comics. That really wasn't a thing back in 1977 when I read my first book. (*early reader*) I can empathize with you. Marvel was about as open back then though. There were just fewer people listening at any given time. (Or at least it felt that way sans internet.) Even as far back as `78, Marvel was more than happy to show their readers how their books were made and what stuff ended up on the cutting room floor.

    The hype machine was still big back then too. You just had to either read the trade magazines, their own in-house Marvel Age, or go to one of the more local comic conventions. I remember going to my first convention here in NY when I was 13 (1987). Back then, the intergeek chatter was all about "Fall of the Mutants" and "Fallen Angels", both of which Marvel was pushing in that coming 12 month period.

    The internet is MUCH bigger. That makes the scope of this b***hfest seem bigger. However, the net has really only succeeded in uniting the many preexisting communities and allowed us all to gripe as one. Relatively speaking, those in the know (ie. fanboys) always saw the man pulling the levers behind the curtain. Not to different than today. The core difference is that the net has allowed us to collect and consolidate that bts info that was always available.
    Last edited by juggalord; 10-01-2015 at 12:00 PM.

  4. #34
    Junior Member juggalord's Avatar
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    Unrelated to my gripes, I'm actually wondering how Marvel intends on rationalizing why Doom chose these specific worlds to save. I know. I know. The rationale was that just he saved whatever could. Still, a part of me has to wonder if, even for a brief moment, Doom thought twice about saving the cartoon worlds or the zombie stuff. Just a silly musing. I'd probably say, "A planet full of Kim Kardashians!?! The Beyonders can have that one."

  5. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by MyriVerse View Post
    "Delayed endlessly?" It's only been 5 weeks since the last Secret Wars issue. Patience. Considering we got two issues in May, we're still pretty much ahead of the game (since the standard is monthly).

    But yeah, I think they should have released UXM 600 already. Don't really see the point of delaying it.
    5 weeks is more than a month. Then they released 2 biweekly at start up. Then they delayed #5 completely. After delaying 5, they announced they were adding an extra issue, making the count to 9.

    My question is this. WTF are they doing over there? :P

    So many delays, and rewrites on a huge series that controls the smaller stories. My theory is that Cyclops "Neck workout" caused so much stir online. That what they had planned would have made more waves. So they have decided to change it.

    Or the place is being ran by monkeys.

    I'm enjoying the story though. But delayed gratification can only go for so long that you lose interest completely. Especially when the payoff is very low and lacking.

  6. #36
    Astonishing Member cranger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by comicbookbeard View Post
    5 weeks is more than a month. Then they released 2 biweekly at start up. Then they delayed #5 completely. After delaying 5, they announced they were adding an extra issue, making the count to 9.

    My question is this. WTF are they doing over there? :P

    So many delays, and rewrites on a huge series that controls the smaller stories. My theory is that Cyclops "Neck workout" caused so much stir online. That what they had planned would have made more waves. So they have decided to change it.

    Or the place is being ran by monkeys.

    I'm enjoying the story though. But delayed gratification can only go for so long that you lose interest completely. Especially when the payoff is very low and lacking.
    Some of it might just be sales and marketing. Given the math I have seen figuring out when work on the main title would have began and how long it would take, it almost seems as if there was no way it would have stayed on schedule. I still recall a Marvel exec describing Secret Wars as being nearly a year long and if I could wrap my head around it I'd tell you exactly how Marvel making it look like a typical double shipping event pushed retailers into ordering heavy on Marvel, less on DC, and that moving the shipping dates back resulted in retailers ordering more of the other Marvel titles to fill the void.

  7. #37
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by juggalord View Post
    Unrelated to my gripes, I'm actually wondering how Marvel intends on rationalizing why Doom chose these specific worlds to save. I know. I know. The rationale was that just he saved whatever could. Still, a part of me has to wonder if, even for a brief moment, Doom thought twice about saving the cartoon worlds or the zombie stuff. Just a silly musing. I'd probably say, "A planet full of Kim Kardashians!?! The Beyonders can have that one."
    Go back and read issue 4 IIRC (don't have anything at hand) when Doctor Strange is explaining to Reed and the rest of the raft occupants what happened while they were in limbo. Remember, Stephen and Doom were together at the time everything was going down really fast at the end. They had no choice in which worlds were left. They retrieved remnants of what was left. Some bits of the Earth they saved because an incursion occurred over Latveria and Wakanda so that's why there are chunks of those kingdoms left.

  8. #38
    Junior Member juggalord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    They had no choice in which worlds were left. They retrieved remnants of what was left.
    Yeah. I know. I even answered my own question. I was just being playful. Trying to lighten the mood & such.

  9. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by juggalord View Post
    Yeah. I know. I even answered my own question. I was just being playful. Trying to lighten the mood & such.
    The truth is.

    Doom broke the 4th wall and asked Marvel which ones would sell the best for the next year.

    I will be interested to see if they will revive all these verses after the end though. So they can continue these other verses stories in the future.

  10. #40
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by juggalord View Post
    FWIW, you say that I'm sending a mixed message, but so is Marvel. In one breath, they tell you that every tie-in has a piece of the larger puzzle and that they exist for a reason that's important to ANAD. I'm not making that up. That's been reported here on CBR a few times before. In the very next breath, they tell you that you don't have to read all of the tie-ins, which makes them feel as if they're worth less.

    I understand what they're saying. Don't get me wrong. They're suggesting that the bulk of the SW story is contained within the actual mini itself, unlike other past events which required you to read more just to get a fuller picture.

    However, taking these two comments together, it almost feels like a contradiction. "They'll all matter, but you don't need to buy them all." Well, if they'll all matter, shouldn't I be reading them all anyway? Having read them, they don't all matter. Most don't, in fact. So, maybe they were right in suggesting that we only need to read some, but they were way wrong in saying that they're all of some significance and consequence.

    I get what they're saying. I do. That doesn't mean that it's still not a bunch of double talk.
    Marvel said something would be introduced in each mini that would contribute to the new MU. That doesn't mean they would be essential to understanding the new MU, or that you have to read the minis to understand whatever it is they introduce. While in some cases the thing introduced is fairly large (refugee characters like Red wolf and Old Man Logan spring to mind) they said flat out that in some cases the thing introduced would be a minor thing, like a magic artifact or something. But even in the case of the big stuff, it doesn't mean you HAVE to read the mini to understand. I am sure the writers are more than capable of summing things up so things will make sense, I am sure that in most cases 'it came from Battleworld' will be enough. So yeah, it's not a contradiction. They 'matter' in the sense that they introduce something new to the MU, but it doesn't mean you HAVE to read them.

  11. #41
    Incredible Member megaharrison's Avatar
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    SW and X-Men an't be marketed for the movie franchise. Movie merchandising and political correctness are the two golden rules of 2015 Marvel.

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