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  1. #16
    Incredible Member TerryAce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by buutenks View Post
    So in conclusion D>Infinity?

    My conclusion is "D does this stuff because he's a line between plot device and character" but I'd say he's supposedly powerful enough to defeat The Guide and The Destroyer (The Guide, Destroyer's counterpart was terrified of him) Possible universal? IDK.

  2. #17
    nice to meet ya! master of read's Avatar
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    i guess i'll start with my boy, Cadis Etrama Di Raizel from noblesse.

    to get a grasp on his speed, we have to look at his servent and aid, dr. frankenstein. at the start of the comic, we don't get a good idea of how fast or strong either are until the DA-5 show up. but there's a break down.

    - rai and frank infiltrate a lab owned by the union, a secret organization that dealt with supernatural entities and enhanced humans. in one of the lower levels, they run into a guy who opens up on them on with a assault rifle. rai doesn't move as frank intercepts the rounds and catches them all with one hand. this pegs him as a solid mid to high tier bullet timer.

    - in the next arc, rai and his friends have to deal with the DA-5, a special superhuman strike team under the employ of the union. frank fights against takeo, the team's sniper. the two trade moves back and forth, with frank dodging point-blank hand gun fire from the guy. seeing they are equal in speed, takeo pops a special drug that amps his stats so much that he was able to blizt frank easily. rai then sends frank a telepathic message giving him permission to go all. frank then proceeds to blizt takeo and end the battle in one move. also rai gets a nice speed feat in this arc too. the DA-5 are holed up in the lab from the last arc in the lowest levels. the sensors they set up in the complex alerts them that someone is coming but moving much faster than they could believe. all the members of the team are low to mid tier bullet timers and takes them around 30 minutes to get from the entrance to their current location (keep in mind, they don't say how fast they are moving when they make the trip, just the time it takes for them to get there). rai gets there in a few seconds.

    - in the next arc, we got introduced to other nobles, particularly one named rael. he and frank get into a fight in the city. rael busts out his soul weapon, which just brandishing it was enough to hurt frank and slice apart the building they were fighting on. frank goes all out, summoning his own soul weapon and the two brawl, tearing up parts of the city. this is the first time frank has been somewhat serious in a fight. when rael returns to lukedonia, the home of the nobles, he comments to one of the elder nobles how he fought frank and nearly beat him. the elder says something to effect of "if you fought him, then either he was going easy on you or he let you go".

    - when rai and frank return to lukedonia, they run into rael and his older brother, rajak. now their clan, the kertia clan, are assassination masters (the very concept of assassins comes from them) who are considered the fastest nobles in the world. rajak is so fast that he can create clones of himself through sheer speed. rael can do it as well with a limit of four. rajak can make at least a dozen and fight on par with a serious frank. now before this fight, rajak tried to stop rai from going to the castle of the lord. rai just casually blizts past rajak like he wasn't even there. everyone who saw this comment on how it shouldn't be possible for anyone outside of the lord to do something like that.

  3. #18
    Rumbles Moderator Guy1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    As we are all aware, anime and manga feats sometimes require the reciting of a long algorithm to point out the growth of characters over time.

    "X was blitzed by Y when they first met but, after training with Z, he blitzes Y. However, upon meeting T, X gets totally blitzed again," and so forth.

    This is a general purpose thread to allow people to have a handy record of particularly long and involved algorithms. I intend to repost my recurrent Hokuto no Ken speed breakdown and other such things if I can find them on my computer.

    As is board standard, no linking to calcs or breakdowns created on other sites. Do your own homework. Hopefully this will prove to be useful as the board continues to regenerate.
    Good idea for a thread Nik.
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  4. #19
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    So to open my posting, here's a speed breakdown for Getbackers focusing primarily on Ban Midou that I made a little while back.

    Things To Note:

    - Getbackers has a big and complicated speed algorithm, it's right up there with Hokuto no Ken and Dragonball in terms of people just apparently randomly jumping speed by insane degrees, so the cast - Ban included - are all really quick. Definitely massively multimach by the end, potentially in the hundreds of mach, but I don't have the number crunching for that.
    - A lot of Getbackers takes place inside Mugenjou (Infinity Fortress) a place that is part virtual reality, part real life, part quantum computing, part magic and reality gets really weird in there. This means a bunch feats have an assload of context to them. Getbackers likes to throw around ideas like they are going out of style and some things may come with longwinded explanations. Furthermore, Getbackers likes to reference real world science for some stuff (notably black holes, the speed of light and so forth) but if you actually follow through with the science then things stop making any kind of sense, so we need to look at the stuff that actually happens, not the "science" explanations. I'm looking at you Masaki.
    - In a manner not too dissimilar to Jojo's Bizarre Adventure, a lot of people's powers have rules and gimicks that make them tricky to use/counter/analyse.

    So, with that said, let's get into Ban.

    By series end, Ban is arguably in the top five most powerful characters in the series and as one half of the leading pair, he's got a shitload of feats.

    For starters, I'll bust out the absolute minimum in terms of speed for Ban. This is unamped, beginning of series, clearly dicking around Ban so this the minimum he can do.

    Context: In the third arc of the manga, Ban and company return to Infinity Fortress and are confronted by Ayame the Spider who has zero G metal bones and hair. He is sitting on a girder some distance above Ban and cuts him on the cheek, Ban then decides to play with him.





    Pretty self-explanatory, Ban nips up whomps Ayame in the chops and returns to the same spot without even appearing to move. That's the lowest level of effort him and it's pretty ridiculous and he gets way faster than that.
    Last edited by Nik Hasta; 09-27-2015 at 03:58 PM.

  5. #20
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    When fighting Dokubachi of the Karuido Clan - who is a living colony of killer bees (don't ask) who can take on human form and has the kind of ridiculous stats were he treats the previously shown level for Ban as little more than a speedbump - Ban attacks, their attacks (apparently just one punch each) just seem to clash and then Ban falls over injured. Dokubachi then notes that Ban had attacked him 12 times in less than 0.1 of a second while simultaneously deflecting Dokubachi's own attacks in turn in a such a way that he didn't get poisoned.



    Dokubachi then proceeds to bop him something fierce and Ban summons the power of the Serpent.



    As noted in the scan, he not only blocks all of Dokubachi's attacks but he's now launching 32 different attacks in less than 0.1 of a second, so we're already getting pretty damn fast.
    Last edited by Nik Hasta; 09-27-2015 at 03:51 PM.

  6. #21
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    I'm at work right now, so I can't post scans very easily, so I'll do some text stuff at least.

    So... when we last left Ban, in terms of speed at least he was on the level of fun afterimage tricks at base form - in fact, there's a fun one from his low level I forgot to post. Ban is fighting some of MakubeX's "dolls", "dolls" being people that he has taken over with his magical internet powers to grant enhanced speed, strength and durability. One of them tries to cut off Ban's head from behind, here's the result:



    Plus we touched on how him being serious and using the power of the serpent has him throwing out tens of attacks in less than 0.1 of a second while blocking attacks coming his way.

    So, in the final arc of the manga, which actually takes up like an entire quarter of the series, Ban and Ginji head to Beltline inside Infinity Fortress.

    Essentially, Infinity Fortress is divided into three sections - Lower Town, Beltline and Babylon City. The higher you go, the more crazy powerful the residents there become.

    So, Ban and co arrive in Beltline and let's see how he did against someone who was literally described as a scrub by Beltline standards:



    So that would be Ban getting blitzed and slammed through three solid stone walkways before he can even do anything. And Yuuri, the guy who did it, is literally a non-entity not only in terms of Beltline but also in terms of where Ban ends up.

    Like I said, the speed algorithm is long and complex.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    EDIT 01/08/18: Having done a better reread, the interpretation that was here was a bit incorrect as I misread some key events. I'll be doing a rewrite elsewhere.
    Last edited by Nik Hasta; 08-01-2018 at 05:20 AM.

  7. #22
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    So, clearly, that breakdown is by no means complete but it's a handy little resource to have close to hand.

    Also, thank you Guy. Hopefully this will be useful to people so they don't have to complex searches to find stuff they worked on before.

  8. #23
    Spectacularly Neurotic Sharkerbob's Avatar
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    Fokkin' 'ell GetBackers got ridiculous. o_O

  9. #24
    Truth and Conviction Hazard's Avatar
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    Been a long time since I have done something like this.

    Saint Seiya

    As a manga verse Saint Seiya is near the top. Mainly because of the high tiers are FTL bricks and stuff, but let's take it from the very beginning here. I'm going to focus on the speed here.

    -First, we start with Cassius who is huge, strong, and completely brutal. He has been Seiya's bully for ten years and wants to kill him. Seiya utterly monsters him without even giving him a change to do anything at all.

    -Later, he fights Cassius' masters who proceed to kick his ass and tells him she can count every single one of his eighty five punches per second. Only after getting his cloth is he able to surpass her speed by breaking the speed of sound with his punches. According to others, he's punching at least 100 times per second.

    -After this, Seiya is shown doing stuff like trading punches with a guy in front of a crowd of reporters so fast the reporters can't see a thing. Then a big ass crater appears on the wall behind the guy he was fighting as he leaves, said guy had no clue how that happened and concludes Seiya was punching too fast for him to see (even faster than the speed of sound). He also kicks a guy dozens of times even though the audience only sees him hit once.

    -Eventually Seiya ends up fighting Shiryu, the Dragon Saint. Shiryu is badass. Shiryu casually blocks every single one of his punches like it's not big deal. Later on, Shiryu shows that even without his cloth he can distinguish Seiya's supersonic punches and lectures him on the fact that only a few of the 100 punches are actually breaking the sound barrier (as an aside it also means Seiya can now throw said punches without his cloth).

    -At this point Seiya starts powering up mid-fight because that's how Seiya rolls. He starts getting faster to the point Shiryu can't see some of his punches. Seiya then reveals to Shiryu he has spotted the weakness of his ultimate attack. While using it Shiryu leaves himself open for all of 1/1000th of a second. Seiya then proceeds to wait for Shiryu to show that opening and punches him within that time frame. All of that during a thousandth of a second. As an aside a Seiya who is about to faint from blood loss then delivers a punch just as strong to Shiryu again to reactive his heart.

    And I'm going to leave it like this for now since it covers this introductory arc.
    Last edited by Hazard; 09-30-2015 at 07:12 PM.
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  10. #25
    nice to meet ya! master of read's Avatar
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    dont have time to do a full breakdown for mamoru from "Until Death Do Us Part" but i can do a preview.

    mamoru is the blind swordsman who is protecting a 12 year old pre-cog from mercs who want to use her for criminal purposes. (who also happens to be his future wife)

    early on in the story, he's a casual bullet timer who can deflect and cut bullets in half with ease. i was just re-reading the manga when i ran across this lovely scene between himself and aegis, the world's greatest bodyguard.




  11. #26
    Incredible Member TerryAce's Avatar
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    Technically Western Animation, but still needs an algorithim.

    In season 1 of Xiaolin Showdown. Master Monk Guan was able to KO Chase Young with a single ki wave (repulse the beast). Chase Young himself has been shown to be able to laugh off punches from Hannibal Roy Bean, who shatters massive stone pillars during a fight with Chase Young (who does similar) They're the three the most skilled fighters in the show.

    In the final episode, Raimundo Pedrosa takes multiple punches, kicks, a ki wave, and a pile on by several Wuya's creatures before beating them all (by throwing stone gargoyles sped up with wind at Chase, Guan and Wuya, and punching out Bean)

  12. #27
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Reposting this here, I'll be adding scans for stuff at some point.

    I present for your edification the Hokuto no Ken speed algorithm.

    Hokuto no Ken Speed Breakdown

    Kenshiro, by series end, is indisputably the strongest and fastest character in the series so we'll using him as our benchmark of the speed curve for the series. But first we must establish how fast Kenshiro is from the beginning through to the end. To do this, we must look at another character - Rei.

    Fairly recently, a bunch of gaiden series about key figures in Hokuto no Ken were released. They are, to my knowledge, considered canon as they don't contradict anything in the core series so we'll be looking at the Sokoku no Garo - the Rei gaiden.

    Rei is a useful character as he is essentially the most prolific character who sits in the mid tier. He's good enough to throw down with the top guys but ultimately can't beat them - see his performances against Kenshiro and Raoh for example. But how fast is he when he first enters the story?

    REI GAIDEN

    - At the start of the story, Rei is already metahuman in terms of speed. He has feats like the standard "dash through a crowd of dudes so fast they don't see him moving and reduce everyone therin to a small pile of body parts," stuff and a rather nice feat where he is attacked from all sides by four martial artists. They strike him and he seems to vanish, jumping above them. In that instant, it's revealed that Rei has cut their weapons into around seven or more separate pieces and entirely shredded their clothes into confetti. This is his baseline, this is already pushing into bullet timer level right here.
    - Fairly early on, Rei fights Zan of Nanto Kojaku-ken, Zan is noted as being one of the fastest fighters from the 108 schools of Nanto and he not only matches Rei in combat but also does kind of crazy stuff like tricking Rei with semi-solid afterimages and other such nonsense. Rei is shown to be largely outclassed by him.
    - Later in the series, Rei having gotten stronger and faster, he takes on Zan again. This time, Zan cannot even touch him. Rei is even messing around in the fight by deliberately shaving his moustache, cutting his hair and removing his clothes. Rei has moved to a higher level in speed than Zan and treats him like a raw scrub.
    - This newly empowered Rei then faces of against Rofuu, his former master and gets totally wrecked by him. Rofuu has bananas feats like charging across cities in seconds, killing 1000 men in around thirty seconds and he generally treats Rei like he's more of an annoyance rather than a threat. Rei can barely lay a hand on him.
    - By the end of the gaiden, Rei has powered up enough that, not only can he now fight Rofuu evenly but he also has a great feat where he outpaces Rofuu swinging his arm by charging across a room, attacking Rofuu, snatching his friend out of the path of the attack and coming to a stop on the other side of the area. Rei, at his peak, has moved beyond Rofuu's capacity to keep up with him.

    This is the Rei that then turns up in the main Hokuto no Ken story and has a confrontation with Kenshiro. Let us move to the main series from here.

    HOKUTO NO KEN - SEASON ONE

    - So, knowing how fast Rei is, we can now start to gauge Kenshiro. The difference between them is best highlighted when Rei, in a fit of desperation about his sister being held hostage, goes for Kenshiro with everything he has. Notably, he launches a superspeed flurry of attacks at Kenshiro at point blank range with his back to solid stone wall. Ken effortlessly dodges them all and we see a shot of these enormous gouges carved in the rock behind him and some of them are literally directly behind him but he is untouched. Rei, for all his being aggressively beyond bullet timing, was essentially punching air. So, throw another order of magnitude on the pile because Ken is easily into the multimach level here.
    - Kenshiro then encounters Souther, the Emperor of Nanto, and Souther can not only keep up with him but Kenshiro is noted as finding it extremely hard to match him in speed. Souther beats him through gimicks and nearly kills him, laying Kenshiro's chest open from neck to navel. It's a gimicky win but the indication is that Souther is a bit faster than Ken at this point.
    - Despite being ripped open, tortured, imprisoned, dragged into the desert to die and then being bandaged up and heavily sedated, Kenshiro shrugs it all off and wades through Souther's army like they are so much chaff, uses his chi to heal his wounds and takes on Souther again, apparently stronger than before to the inspirational sacrifice of Shuu. Souther uses his ultimate technique, once again appearing to be so fast that Kenshiro can't really touch him whereupon Kenshiro just blasts him with Tenha Kassatsu. So, we learn here that Kenshiro has gotten on a level where he can evenly fight Souther and his chi blasts are fast enough that even someone on Souther's level can't dodge them.
    - From this point, Kenshiro gets a few more powerups but nothing to concretely cement his speed at a certain level outside of him just effortlessly whomping on everyone below the top tiers. He fights and defeats Raoh, learning Musou Tensei on the way, and the first series ends. At this juncture, I'd argue that Kenshiro is mid to high multimach. Likely still only in double digits of mach but approaching three rapidly. Thus we transition into season two.

    HOKUTO NO KEN - SEASON TWO

    - Season two takes place after a timeskip and Kenshiro has apparently grown stronger over this time. He fetches up against Falco, a monstrously strong Gento Koken practitioner who even Raoh respected, and Kenshiro is still so wickedly above, he deliberately cripples himself in one leg and doesn't exploit weakness unique to Falco in a bid to make it more fair. Essentially, he's toying with him. Remember, this is a guy who Raoh, who was essentially Kenshiro's equal and had a massive ego, wasn't certain he could beat. Kenshiro is just toying with him.
    - We then transition to the land of Shura. A land where everyone is combat optimised and even basic grunts are apparently around Falco's level. Kenshiro is capable of whomping on them, as expected and looks to challenge their leaders. We then meet Shachi, a fighter from Shura who makes a habit of fighting and beating reasonably high tier fighters in Shura so he is solidly above people who treat guys like Falco like mooks. He meets and befriends Kenshiro and gets him to fight Han - one of the three kings of Shura. Han's whole deal is speed and this is where things get interesting.
    - Even in Shura, where apparently massively multimach kung fu mastery is the norm, Han's fist is so fast that he claims that no one has even seen it's shadow. We see him shred a mid tier Shura guy to pieces without apparently seeming to get out his chair. Shachi can't beat him, can't really touch him in combat so it falls to our boy Ken. Kenshiro rocks up to his castle and they get into it. As they fight, Shachi notes that he can't even see Kenshiro and Han exchanging hits, he can only loosely tell what's happening by the fact that blood is flying off both of them from the hits.
    - After razing the castle to it's foundations, Kenshiro manages to pull out a neat little blitz of Han - hitting a super specific pressure point mid attack without Han even seeing him do it. Kenshiro now easing into the sort of triple digit mach at this point for my money maybe. We're getting into the high end multimach.
    - Then Kenshiro runs into his eldest brother Kaioh and gets killed. Literally. Heart stops, he's a corpse and we spend three days of Shachi dragging his body through the wasteland wondering what the hell to do.
    - Fortunately, Kenshiro decides that being dead is for suckers and returns from death more powerful than before. Parallel to this, Kaioh infects Hyoh, Kenshiro's other brother, with the dark chi power that makes him so powerful and also makes him super crazy and evil. Hyoh gets into a fight with Kuro Yasha and decides, for fun, to slap Yasha into a distortion in space and to strike all 1,108 pressure points on his body at the same time with a ridiculous flurry of attacks.
    - Kenshiro dashes in, negotiates his way through the distorted space and blocks all 1,108 attacks /while looking bored./
    - Finally, Kenshiro absorbs the spirits of the original Hokuto fist, thus powering up again, and manages to take on a defeat Kaioh despite being in a poisonous atmosphere amongst specially sculptet terrain to that is designed to mess with his innate trained reflexes and make him fight worse. Despite this and despite Kaioh being a friggin' monster, Kenshiro is so quick and precise, he manages to pull off an insane pressure point hit where he accupunctures him mid attack with a single hair without Kaioh even seeing him do it.
    - The wind down of the series sees Kenshiro as almost completely unassailable and we never see him actively have to try hard every again. Oh, and he also shows that he actually knows how to raise the dead with pressure points which has nothing to do with speed but it's awesome.

    There, that's not totally complete but it's a good indication of just how deep the algorithm goes for Hokuto no Ken.

    Plus!

    With absorbing the spirits of the original Hokuto, Kenshiro gains the memories of all Grandmasters of his style. This would include his ancestor Kasumi Kenshiro who created the technique Raibo Shinkyaku, a technique that specifically massively amps the users speed by a massive factor.So Kenshiro is theoretically even faster if he uses that technique.

    So yeah, by the end, I'd pitch Kenshiro at the high end multimach.
    Last edited by Nik Hasta; 12-26-2016 at 03:48 PM.

  13. #28
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Basic Saitama Speed Breakdown

    As with every discussion involving Saitama, the usual caveat applies. Even as far as we are in the original manga, we have never seen Saitama even get close to going all out.

    However, we can look at the speed algorithm of everyone else and work out what his absolute minimum has to be. This will contain minor spoilers for a fight or two.

    So... I guess Genos is a useful enough measuring stick.

    When he appears, Base Genos is capable of tearing the legs of a superspeed enemy in flight with such speed and precision that they don't even notice that their legs have gone until they see him holding their legs. He outruns his own incinerator blasts to their targets and generally pulls off your standard anime blink movement thing.

    So, soft pitch at high endish bullet time, maybe?

    Likely faster.

    First time Genos, who is still in his base body, encounters Speed of Sound Sonic, Sonic blitzes around him with impunity and Genos is like; "Huh, he's pretty crazy fast,"

    So, we're a solid tier up on high end bullet timerish right there.

    Genos then gets his upgraded body and gets into another fight with Sonic later on. Sonic and him are fairly even now so Genos has reached the same level. Genos then "accelerates," and starts utterly overwhelming Sonic, deliberately snatching bits off his clothes, making him look like he's real slow. So that's another level up.

    Sonic then activates his own superspeed technique, Four Shadows Burial, and he's at a level of speed that Genos can barely perceive so his only option is to try and counter with an AoE. So that's another level up, quite a steep one at that.

    So, flash forward to the Garou arc, which is currently only in the original webcomic so this may change when Murata gets to this part, and we see Genos, enhanced body and all, fetch up against Gums and Black Sperm and they both tear him to pieces faster than he can react. Add another order of magnitude onto that and kiss Genos goodbye because he has ceased to be relevant. Bang then goes in on the same monsters and pretty much blitzes them with ease, which is another order of magnitude. Shortly after this, Black Sperm unifies all of his cells to become Golden Sperm and he's on a level where he's even effortlessly blitzing Tatsumaki, who was casually monstering on everyone at that point.

    Garou then rocks up, blitzes /everyone/ including Golden Sperm and specifically notes that he's not really having to try that hard.

    He then... finally, fetches up against Saitama and is still utterly outclassed by a non-serious Saitama.

    So... to recap, that's... ten orders of magnitude above high end bullet timerish to get to Saitama and that's still Saitama when he's not trying.

    He's certainly in the high multiples of mach. Somewhere in the hundreds or something.

    This isn't fully complete but it's a good indicator of his speed.

  14. #29
    Extraordinary Member Cody's Avatar
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    You know; I've been thinking on Saitamas serious punch that he used on Boros. Since Saitamas abilities are purely physical; that would mean that; what killed Boros was just the sheer force from Saitamas punch. The punch itself took out the attack; but the shockwave from the punch was enough to eradicate Boros.

    So I think it's fair to say that Saitama can at least hit with enough force to wreck the planet.
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  15. #30
    Give me your SOUL! The Dog's Avatar
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    A good indication of Saitama's durability comes from his fight with Boros, where, after the latter activates his "Meteoric Burst" super mode, he hits Saitama with enough force to cause Saitama to hit the surface of the moon in a few seconds. Here's a reddit calculating how much force Mike Tyson would need to launch Buzz Aldrin to the moon for reference. And Saitama isn't remotely phased by the blow after crashing into the moon's surface.

    And then Saitama casually stands up, immune to the effects of being outside our protective atmosphere minus the fact he needs air. This means things like embolism (air bubbles in the body) that could cause his body to inflate up to twice it's normal size and horrific sunburn from the UV rays from the sun. And then he jumps back to Earth, unaffected by things like Atmospheric Reentry. And just so you know, during reentry, objects experience extreme heating and aerodynamic forces due to friction with the atmosphere. Temperatures can reach 3000 degrees Fahrenheit (1650 Celsius) or more, and deceleration loads may be 7 times the force of gravity or greater.

    So yeah, Saitama is a beast when it comes to tanking damage.
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