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  1. #46
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jcogginsa View Post
    I've seen some people use his moon kick to extrapolate his speed. Their logic goes

    - Saitama would have had to be going lightspeed or therabouts in order to hit the moon the way he did. (I forget the exact calc)
    - Boros leg would need to be going as fast as Saitama was going
    - Therefore Boros can move at Lightspeed.

    I've always been kinda dubious on that. How do you feel?
    That would not be a valid argument for me I'm afraid.
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  2. #47
    Rumbles Moderator Guy1's Avatar
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    Out of curiosity Nik, do you still have the Trigun Speed Breakdown?
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  3. #48
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guy1 View Post
    Out of curiosity Nik, do you still have the Trigun Speed Breakdown?
    Oh man, nah that got lost in the board reset. A real shame, that was an interesting one to do.

    I could rebuild it but... yeah, at this point, I'd flatly have to reread all of Trigun from start to finish to do it.

    I mean, that doesn't sound like a bad thing to do, because that series is great. I'll keep it on the backburner if I find myself at a loose end over a weekend or something.
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  4. #49
    Rumbles Moderator Guy1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    Oh man, nah that got lost in the board reset. A real shame, that was an interesting one to do.

    I could rebuild it but... yeah, at this point, I'd flatly have to reread all of Trigun from start to finish to do it.

    I mean, that doesn't sound like a bad thing to do, because that series is great. I'll keep it on the backburner if I find myself at a loose end over a weekend or something.
    Coolness. I remember that being pretty awesome. Manga Vash is like scary fast.
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  5. #50
    Incredible Member Sol_M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    Okay.

    One-Punch Man Speed Algorithmic Breakdown
    Awesome breakdown, Nik.

    What does "high" miltimach mean to you though?

  6. #51
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol_M View Post
    Awesome breakdown, Nik.

    What does "high" miltimach mean to you though?
    Sorry, overlooked this but it's a good question.

    This kind of depends on the character and the context. I know these terms get thrown around a lot but speed is difficult to fully quantify and fictional characters aren't really built to be measured in total scrutiny.

    Like, I asserted that Flashy Flash should be measured more in terms of fractions of lightspeed than mach, right? If he's 5% lightspeed (maybe, this is likely high balling him) then puts him at around Mach 44,000.

    Which is... like... high multimach... but then that feels like it's the wrong term.

    I guess when I use it, I'm reaching for something in the hundreds or even thousands of mach. Like, if you're at around Mach 8000 you are 1% of lightspeed, so slower than that. Now, I'm aware that means this category is like... super broad but then the problem with fiction is that things are seldom consistent in terms of presentation and so on.

    It's a bit like Class 100, after a certain point it becomes less about the designation and more about the feats versus their opponent.

    My breakdowns are meant to be indicative of whereabouts a person might sit, broadly, and how the speed algorithm develops to help non-manga savvy people understand how we got there. They are not meant to be definitive.
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  7. #52
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Also, while it's strictly speaking not anime/manga, I just want to drop my planck time breakdown here so I can reference it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marvel-Studios Rep View Post
    Wellllllllll, I mean, if we take the time Wally was so fast that Pre Crisis Superman was effect9vely frozen, I imagine he is Planck level speed.
    Honestly? No. Not even close.

    Pre Crisis Superman is ungodly amounts faster than light and that one time Wally made him look like a statue was pretty OD but... no.

    Planck time is utterly stupid in terms of what "operating within a period that is measured in Planck time," means in terms of its conceptual speed.

    Like... it's kind of hard to conceptualise because of the sheer orders of magnitude involved but I'll have a crack at illustrating it.

    Like... okay... so a nanosecond is a billionth of a second and is the time it takes light in a vacuum to travel 30 centimetres (1 foot). It would take light roughly 131 million nanoseconds to go around the entire planet. If you're working on scales of nanoseconds, you are extremely fast. If you were to perceive nanoseconds as we perceive normal seconds, you could fairly easily jog 100 metres in the time it takes a beam of light to go less than 10 metres. This is generally the scale that non-Wally West Flashes hang out.

    The next order of magnitude is a picosecond wherein light travels 0.3 millimetres. If picoseconds were as regular seconds, it would take three "seconds" for a beam of light to move a millimetre. It would take a beam of light 83 relative hours to move 100 metres.

    We're getting into the realms of some of PC Superman's more wacky feats at this level based on scaling of his ability to cover insane distances and do complex things while lasers are in some form of motion, similarly with normal everyday speed god Wally West.

    And I want to stress that this is regardless of what some of the dubious statements in comics themselves say, (I'm thinking specifically of that bit where a lady with a gun to her head "buys herself an attosecond," in a recent Superman comic. As we will see when we get there, haha fuck no.) most high end stuff in comics where we have light to scale against falls into the realms of working on a scale of picoseconds.

    A femtosecond, light is now only moving 0.3 micrometres per unit of time, that's 1/3rd of a /millionth/ of a metre. To an observer, a beam of light is effectively a statue because it's moving at such a low amount. If you perceived femtoseconds like you do regular seconds, you need to watch a beam of light for a relative 11 days for it to move a single millimetre. This is about where higher end Pre Crisis stuff tends to sit - Superman doing heart surgery in the arctic while a laser moves through the air on another continent for example.

    I'll note that it becomes very difficult to scale things from here because we are dealing with increasingly small units of time and, honestly, not a lot happens here but we'll continue to use light as a yardstick of sorts.

    An attosecond. This is 1/1000th of a femtosecond. So if attoseconds were as regular seconds to you, someone who perceives light as a statue is effectively frozen to you. Light would travel would now travel one thousand times less far than in the above referenced femtosecond. You would need to watch a beam of light for 31 years to see it move a single millimetre. This would be about where absolute peak Wally West, the singular feat we're talking about, would be sitting. Light is frozen to him, people who perceive light as effectively frozen are themselves functionally completely frozen to him. If Wally is at his best, he's doing stuff in the scale attoseconds.

    So, let's go beyond that shall we?

    A zeptosecond, add another order of magnitude. 1/1000th of an attosecond. Same rationale as before, you would need to watch a beam of light for a relative 31,710 years to see it move an entire millimetre. Wally West is a statue to you now and we still have not hit Planck time.

    Yoctoseconds, apparently the smallest measurement of time we've actually been able to do in real world science. You would now need to watch a beam of light for a relative 32 million years for it to move a single millimetre. The next, and final increment is Planck time.

    We than hit Plank Time, which is still theoretical but is pitched as being... this is actually going to require maths on my part because it's not a clean order of magnitude jump like the others. Planck time is one quintillionth of a single yoctosecond. So... this would mean that you would need to watch a beam of light for a relative... 32 octillion years for it to move a single millimetre. For scale, that length of relative time is dramatically longer than the real world universe has been in existence. The entire universe could begin and get to this moment in time, stop and restart around 2.4 quintillion times over before light had moved a millimetre in Planck time.

    Now, my math might not be perfect on the final number but I hope I have illustrated how bananas scaling the speed of anything in Planck time is. Wally West, even at his tippity toppiest best speed feats ever is nowhere near it.

    Ares has no business even being in the same conversation of what Planck time means.
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  8. #53
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    Nik, a question / request

    So far you've been focusing on single series thus far, would you be willing to do a mixed list? IE, a rough ranking of the series you've done, so we can get an idea of where the Hokuto no Ken characters compare to the One Punch Man characters, etc.

  9. #54
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jcogginsa View Post
    Nik, a question / request

    So far you've been focusing on single series thus far, would you be willing to do a mixed list? IE, a rough ranking of the series you've done, so we can get an idea of where the Hokuto no Ken characters compare to the One Punch Man characters, etc.
    Nah, I'm not going to do that.

    Firstly, it's a fair amount of work and I'd be more interested in looking at other series rather than effectively rehashing existing content.

    Secondly, like, people can just look at the various breakdowns, draw their own conclusions and get the same effect as me putting one together.
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  10. #55
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Update: the next series to get breakdown will be Kimetsu no Yaiba for a couple of reasons.

    1) I love it and it's great.

    2) It's a completed series so the breakdown won't have to be periodically revised in a few years - looking at you One Punch Man.

    3) It's not very long so I should be able to turn it around very quickly.

    Next on the docket after that would be Trigun or possibly Shaman King.

    I have also updated the first post in this thread with a linked contents section for stuff I've done.
    Last edited by Nik Hasta; 09-28-2020 at 08:07 AM.
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  11. #56
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Okay, so Point 3 may have been a lie in my previous post.

    This is because, instead of just scanning it, I just read the whole series. It's really good.

    But anyhow, we're done with the analysis so please find my observations and generalised breakdowns below.

    Kimetsu no Yaiba - Speed Breakdown

    We'll be focusing on main boy Kamado Tanjiro and his relationship to the leading lights of the Demon Slayers - the Hashira.

    Initially, against a completely untrained, normal human Tanjiro, the first Hashira we encounter - Giyuu - is capable of blitzing around invisibly. He even, at one point, snatches Nezuko from Tanjiro's grasp while he's all but sitting on her and moves some distance away while carrying her and Tanjiro doesn't even perceive it happening.

    Tanjiro, shortly thereafter, encounters his first basic demon. The demon, who is very much a generic basic demon, is shown to have some kind of enhanced movement. It's basic grunt demon but he can still blitz Tanjiro out of a house faster than he can dodge. Tanjiro is able to take some form of offensive action in return though.

    Tanjiro then trains to fight for a year and half and grows stronger and faster than he was before. He then takes on the ghost swordsman Sabito. When they first fight, Tanjiro is utterly powerless to even block his attacks. Upon training against him for a further six months, Tanjiro is not only shown to be his equal but also specifically outdoes him in terms of raw bladespeed.

    > To be clear, at this point, we are very much in the Peak Human end of the speed pool. Nothing really special yet.

    Tanjiro, having completed his training, attends the final selection test wherein he is pitted against demons once more. Contrasting how he was before, barely able to react to a grunt demon's movements, Tanjiro is now capable of blitzing multiple demons at once and beheading them before they can react to him or attack. This is the period wherein Tanjiro is using Water Breathing as his primary offensive tool and it seems to grant him Peak Human, if not beyond, speed.

    This is further supported shortly after when Tanjiro cuts 8 projectiles that are flying fast enough to tear through brickwork and stone out of the air and the arm of the person who threw them before they can react or dodge him. A slightly wordy feat, click here to view it.

    > This sort of thing, to me, is a bit beyond what a Peak Human could do. Something Shiva-ish level but not bullet timing yet.

    We have a check in with how Tanjiro and his peers are standing up to the Hashira when Giyuu, the guy from the start, turns up again and blitzes Inosuke [who is effectively equal to Tanjiro in stat terms] and ties him up and then suspends him from a tree all faster than Inosuke can react. So Hashira, still way beyond our now Ringer-ish level boys.

    We then have a brief training arc where Tanjiro and the boys master Total Concentration Breathing Constant, which explicitly boosts his base stats a lot. This is illustrated by him going from being completely unable to catch Kanao in training or outdo her in handspeed, to being able to catch and match her.

    > We are officially a level above Ringer.

    Checking in with how this sits in relation to the Hashira, we have Rengoku being able to move so fast and so powerfully that the force of him running almost derails the train he's moving on. In the context of the story, he is able to personally cover and battle demons in five different train cars by himself effectively while it takes two people of Tanjiro's level to cover three. Still a big difference. Additionally, when seeing Rengoku fight Akaza (who will become relevant later) Inosuke comments that they are "in a different dimension of speed," and that he cannot follow their movements.

    This gap is further reinforced when Uzui is fast enough to dodge Tanjiro mid-attack and go from ground level to a rooftop in an instant while carrying two people. Uzui though is integral to our next bit of scaling. Things are about to go rather quickly for a spell.

    Tanjiro then battles a demon called Daki. In her base form and with his Ringer+ level speed, she is quicker than him but he can just about hold his own against her. Tanjiro by this point has begun to master his Fire God Breathing and this causes his speed to jump. He does a full on afterimage trick and seems to be faster than Daki. She, in turn, gets more serious and matches him.

    > So Tanjiro goes from Ringer+ to being able to blitz someone faster than Ringer+ which would be... low end bullet time with Fire God Breathing?

    Daki then absorbs her Obi which grants her a lot more power and her attacks become basically invisible to Tanjiro once more. So that's another jump in speed again. Tanjiro utterly loses his shit and briefly enters his Marked Form and comments he can now perceive Daki's attacks in slow motion. He also does an absolutely bananas blitz feat of her. However, this mode is not stable and doing so literally almost kills him.

    > I would hazard a guess that Daki with her Obi and Tanjiro in Marked Mode are Bullet Timer and High End Bullet Timer respectively at this point.

    We get a useful check-in here to see where we are in relation to the Hashira. Uzui shows up and beheads Daki so fast no one even sees him move. This would put him in the same kind of bracket as Tanjiro with his Mark active but that's at his base.

    Zipping ahead and after some training, Tanjiro is capable of maintaining his Fire God Breathing consistently. When he is fighting Hantengu, Hantengu notes that Tanjiro is faster than he was when he fought Gyuutaro. Granted that's a statement but he's been training so I would give him a small nudge on his base stats here.

    > Based on that, I would put Tanjiro at a stable mid-ish bullet timer kind of level.

    Checking in with the Hashira again, Muichiro is still definitively faster than Tanjiro by some way and also manifests his own marked form which allows him to blitz a demon he previously couldn't catch with his attacks.

    Also, another Hashira, Kanroji has a feat where she cuts apart lightning bolts and sound waves being blasted at her, I don't think it's relevant to the curve but I think it's just a radical feat so I'm mentioning it here. She activated her mark to perform the above feat which enhanced her speed which was, prior to that, noted as being faster than Uzui who we covered earlier.

    We then have a training arc wherein everyone who can [The Hashira and Tanjiro] starts to master their marked forms which means generalised boosts to all stats, including speed. Handily, in the final arc of the series, Akaza comes back and fights Tanjiro and Giyuu. Marked Tanjiro is now able to keep up with him in his normal mode, so Tanjiro has now reached that "different dimension of speed," referenced back in the Rengoku fight.

    In this fight, Giyuu is still faster than Tanjiro and also unlocks his mark thereby going even faster. So Tanjiro, despite mastering the high end bullet timing speed we saw earlier against Daki, is still a smidge slower than the Hashira.

    > We're comfortably in the "everyone important is high end bullet timers," kind of level here.

    Akaza activates his Compass Technique and speeds up to match Giyuu. Tanjiro at a disadvantage again. However, Tanjiro then learns to "enter the see-through world," which is like a super heightened state of awareness and focus that allows one to completely remove all unneeded movement and body read to gain negative reaction times. In this mode, he comments he can see Akaza attacks "in slow motion,"

    > See-Through World Tanjiro is specifically beyond high end bullet timer sort of level.

    Meanwhile, the Hashira are fighting Upper Moon One (UP1), the second most powerful demon in the series. He can also enter See-Through World. UP1 effortlessly blitzes Muichiro with his mark, whom we saw earlier in the curve. Clearly sitting atop that "above high end bullet timer," level. He's also capable of fighting multiple Hashira alone with Shinazugawa and Himejima, the latter of which is unequivocally the strongest of the Hashira, barely being able to approach him even with their marks in play.

    He also has a couple of feats of effortlessly blocking rounds of buckshot fired into his face with a sword which is inkeeping with his presentation.

    > Presentationally, UP1 is faster than Akaza so I'd say we're into the outright and nebulous "superspeed" level bracket here. Additionally, Himejima enters into the See-Through World as well and gets a boost to his speed and apparently gains such control over his body that he can mess up body reading (which isn't to do with speed but it's cool).

    Finally, Muzan - the final boss of the series - is faster than everyone else in the series we've discussed so far. He takes on no less than five Hashira alone (including Himejima who got a boost mentioned above), plus a bunch of mobs and the four primary/supporting characters of the show on all at the same time by himself while poisoned to heck and drastically weakened and is mostly winning.

    The only person who comes close to his speed is Tanjiro who, after absorbing his ancestral memories and unlocking his red blade, is able to barely hold his own against Muzan while using the final form of his Fire God Breathing to constantly attack. Muzan notes that he has lost a lot of his speed due to the huge amounts of poison in him but it's still a damn good feat for Tanjiro.

    > So, Muzan, inasmuch as we saw him do stuff, is definitely some flavour of multimach. Tanjiro with all systems go is in that same kind of area.

    You'll note I've been a touch vague on specifics here but there's not much more to go on beyond the algorithmic assessment. Anyhow, that's my lot, next one will be Trigun.
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  12. #57
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Just so I've got a list of series I'm thinking of to refer to.

    THE DOCKET

    - Trigun/Trigun Maximum
    - Shaman King (Base series, not including Flowers/Stars)
    - Battle Angel Alita: Last Order

    If you have other things you would like me to consider doing a write up on, please let me know.
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  13. #58
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    -I'm currently reading through Jujustu Kaisen, and it's had some neat feats so far. Be cool to see that
    -Ditto Chainsaw man

  14. #59
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jcogginsa View Post
    -I'm currently reading through Jujustu Kaisen, and it's had some neat feats so far. Be cool to see that
    Jiujutsu Kaisen is on my radar. However, it's still kind of young and, honestly, isn't that speed based. I'm keeping an eye on it for the moment.

    -Ditto Chainsaw man
    Zero interest in this. Chainsaw Man has almost no algorithmic progression. It's a wonderful series but there's not much to figure out.

    When it's over, maybe, but right now I don't see the point.
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  15. #60
    Incredible Member TerryAce's Avatar
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    Here's one coming from one of my favorite manga, Guyer.

    In the spinoff Booklet, a prototype of Thanarcus the Hyper Zoanoid blitzes the Prime Minister of Cuba in front of a crowed of hundreds with no one seeing anything and the cameras not detecting him at all, save one that got a partial picture of a shadow of him.

    Later on, in Volume 3 Chapter 19 the perfected version goes up against Guyver 3, who blitzes him

    Two years later, Guyver 3 goes up against Guyver 1 in vol 28 chapter 180 and Guyver 1 blitzes him and dices his arm and leg off before Guyver 3 can react
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