Shared Universe: Superman books verses Batman books

[Darth Kal-el]

I have been 're reading many of the Superman and Batman books from the nineties and I noticed something interesting. The DC Earth is a shared universe and in many of the major Superman stories from Panic in the Sky to the Death and Return of Superman to Millennium Giants to Our Worlds at War to Last Son, For Tomorrow, New Krypton, Grounded, and even in the present day in the new fifty two such as Doomed, Unchained, and Truth other super heroes, especially Batman and JLA show up regularly to help Superman even if he is the one who ultimately saves the day.

Meanwhile in major Batman stories from Knightfall, Contagion, Cataclysm, No Mans Land, Fugitive, Hush, RIP, Inc and in the new fifty two with Court of Owls, Eternal, Death of the family, and Endgame the other super heroes outside the Bat Family barely make an appearance. The JLA is never there and Superman usually just shows up to leave if they are seen at all. The JL was only shown to be used by the Joker if the first issue of Endgame and then disappeared even when things got tough and deadly in Gotham. Some of these stories the stakes were very high and Gotham could have easily been destroyed. Was actually destroyed in Cataclysm and NML.

So I am asking why the Bat books separate the rest of the universe from Gotham and don't at least give a logical explanation why they don't bother to help while the Superman books makes full use of the shared universe concept.

I understand they want to tell Batman and Bat Family stories but it isn't logical his super hero friends wouldn't show to save lives in Gotham. They could at least try and explain the absence because heros would save lives all over the place and not be bound by a city.

What do y'all think do the Batman books drop the ball or do the Superman books use other super heroes too much. I would at least like a good explanation why the JLA aren't there because this is a shared universe. It shouldn't take more than a page of dialogue to give it rational reason. Many times I am taken out of the story due to this.

It especially was bad in Endgame because the Joker attacked the JLA and controlled them without explanation but once they were better there is no way they wouldn't return them to help especially when she Joker took control of the town. Also other members besides Clark would want to know the deal with the new Batman and what happened to Bruce

So why do y'all think the Superman books take the time to deal with the shared universe concept but the Batman books leave readers scratching their heads as to why they continually leave Gotham and it's citizens to burn

[manduck37]

The simple answer is sales. Batman books sell just fine and he's a popular hero. So you don't need to boost sales with appearances by other heroes. Though if you put Batman in someone else's book, sales may go up for that book. That seems to be about all there is too it. I highly doubt that anyone really thinks much about a true shared universe over at DC.

Plus if someone like Superman makes an appearance in say Knightfall, he can solve the problem almost instantly. So then what would be the point of Batman?

As far as "in story" reasons for the JLA not showing up to help out when Gotham is leveled, like in Knightfall or Zero Year, the other heroes are usually busy with their own problems. Sure, Bane could destroy Gotham. Though if Superman or GL or Wonder Woman don't stop some other worldly threat, the entire planet could be destroyed.

Personally, I'd like to see a little less of other heroes in the Superman books. I kind of like the isolation of the Bat books. I buy Batman and Superman to read about Batman and Superman. It can be fun to cross over from time to time or have guest appearances. Really though, I'd like to keep it to a minimum. I'm pretty sure Superman can handle it, whatever it is. If I want the League, I have two books to enjoy (and I do enjoy them).

[Ascended]

Well, the concept of a shared universe, if you look at it objectively, falls apart right from the start.

Even if you assume that the villains provide a balance to the heroes' attempts to improve the world, thus keeping things relatively "normal" as far as socio-political changes go, that reasoning becomes even harder to swallow when the heroes begin working together in large, organized groups. Villains, by their nature, aren't big on cooperation, so the idea that they are able to hold the world back against the changes the League would bring just doesnt make sense.

If the Justice League were written realistically, almost all crime, poverty, and inequality would be wiped out within a year. There'd certainly be a few holdouts, a handful of powerful/talented villains at large, a few nations that refuse to play ball, whatever. But when you have gods, aliens, and the smartest people on earth all working towards the common good, there's no real reason why the world wouldnt change drastically at a very accelerated rate.

Best just not to worry about it. Comics are not really made for deep contemplation.

[LifeIsILL]

The Batfamily shows up all the time in Bat books...

[calypsocoin]

I'd say it has to do with the nature of the characters and their surroundings. A lot of Batman's supporting cast is fellow heroes, Robin, Nightwing, Batgirl, Oracle, etc. Most of these are people that he has an extremely close relationship with - sharing both his superhero and personal lives, whom he can depend on to help him fight villains. Until the likes of Supergirl, Superboy, and Steel show up, most of Superman's supporting characters were civilians - Lois Lane, Jimmy Olsen, Perry White, etc. - with the exception of characters like Gangbuster and Guardian, who have no where near the power and abilities Superman does. Speaking of power, the villains that Superman faces are generally on a different level than those of Batman's. Batman villains are psychotic or based in mental strategy and mind games, whereas Superman's villains generally focus on physical power and destruction. Essentially, Batman's villains pose less of a threat to the world outside Gotham. I feel like most of the time Superman is presented as America's hero whereas Batman is Gotham's protector, especially pre-Flashpoint. Doomsday destroyed half of the United States before he made it to Metropolis. Even the great strategist Lex Luthor usually concocts schemes that fall along the lines of imminent destruction. Superman is so powerful and strong that when a threat is too great for him to defeat, he needs the strength of the Justice League for help. I think there have been great Superman stories that don't include the Justice League, however.

My question about Superman vs. Batman stories is why so many recommended/highly acclaimed Superman stories are out of his main continuity. Whenever I see someone respond to someone asking for recommendations about Superman comics, I always hear All-Star Superman, Red Son, Superman for All Seasons, all of which are fantastic comics, but none ever published as a part of his main canon! (I'm one to speak, though, Superman: Secret Identity is one of my favorite Superman stories and it's no where near canon). This may be the case with Batman stories as well; I'm less familiar with them, but I usually notice it more with Superman stories.

[phantom1592]

Simple answer is that in the 90's Batman really started to become a jerk. He got all growly, became 'Bat-god' and anytime another hero came on his turf he'd growl at them till they left. Gotham was HIS and he didn't want anyone else messing with his style.


On the other note, Batman has weak villains. Most of the great Batman stories were about the detective aspect and figuring out WHO the killer was or where they were gonna strike next. Once they found that out... there really weren't any villains that were a physical match for Batman.

Joker, Penguin, Two-face?? None of them are martial arts masters or expert hand to hand... He has all the skills, the weapons, the vehicles... he doesn't really NEED superman or Green Lantern to come in and punch someone. He's got it handled. Nobody else is going to be better at putting the clues together... and once he has the answer he takes out the bad guy too.

[Ascended]

Simple answer is that in the 90's Batman really started to become a jerk. He got all growly, became 'Bat-god' and anytime another hero came on his turf he'd growl at them till they left. Gotham was HIS and he didn't want anyone else messing with his style.


On the other note, Batman has weak villains. Most of the great Batman stories were about the detective aspect and figuring out WHO the killer was or where they were gonna strike next. Once they found that out... there really weren't any villains that were a physical match for Batman.

Joker, Penguin, Two-face?? None of them are martial arts masters or expert hand to hand... He has all the skills, the weapons, the vehicles... he doesn't really NEED superman or Green Lantern to come in and punch someone. He's got it handled. Nobody else is going to be better at putting the clues together... and once he has the answer he takes out the bad guy too.

I've always wanted to see a story where a high-end superhuman shows up in Gotham and takes over. Let's see how Batman would handle dealing with a serious threat, instead of the insane clowns and gangsters he usually faces; someone who could go a few rounds with Superman. I'd like to see how a well written and intelligent super-powered villain would do in Gotham, and I'd love to see Batman's "Gotham is MY city!" mentality put to the test. When he's just dealing with Killer Croc or Scarecrow, that's all well and good but how would he do against someone like Sinestro?

Likewise, I always love seeing Clark deal with the street level psychos. Superman's supposed to be one of the smartest people on earth and he's a successful journalist, let's see more of that in play (this is part of why I love the 90's era Toyman so much)

[ManSinha]

I've always wanted to see a story where a high-end superhuman shows up in Gotham and takes over. Let's see how Batman would handle dealing with a serious threat, instead of the insane clowns and gangsters he usually faces; someone who could go a few rounds with Superman. I'd like to see how a well written and intelligent super-powered villain would do in Gotham, and I'd love to see Batman's "Gotham is MY city!" mentality put to the test. When he's just dealing with Killer Croc or Scarecrow, that's all well and good but how would he do against someone like Sinestro?

Likewise, I always love seeing Clark deal with the street level psychos. Superman's supposed to be one of the smartest people on earth and he's a successful journalist, let's see more of that in play (this is part of why I love the 90's era Toyman so much)

Yeah but would that not upset the editorial mandates of the caped crusader being all supreme?

[Tayswift]

I've always wanted to see a story where a high-end superhuman shows up in Gotham and takes over. Let's see how Batman would handle dealing with a serious threat, instead of the insane clowns and gangsters he usually faces; someone who could go a few rounds with Superman. I'd like to see how a well written and intelligent super-powered villain would do in Gotham, and I'd love to see Batman's "Gotham is MY city!" mentality put to the test. When he's just dealing with Killer Croc or Scarecrow, that's all well and good but how would he do against someone like Sinestro?

Likewise, I always love seeing Clark deal with the street level psychos. Superman's supposed to be one of the smartest people on earth and he's a successful journalist, let's see more of that in play (this is part of why I love the 90's era Toyman so much)

wth? and batman enemies aren't serious, you have to be kidding me

[Agent Z]

I've always wanted to see a story where a high-end superhuman shows up in Gotham and takes over. Let's see how Batman would handle dealing with a serious threat, instead of the insane clowns and gangsters he usually faces; someone who could go a few rounds with Superman. I'd like to see how a well written and intelligent super-powered villain would do in Gotham, and I'd love to see Batman's "Gotham is MY city!" mentality put to the test. When he's just dealing with Killer Croc or Scarecrow, that's all well and good but how would he do against someone like Sinestro?

Likewise, I always love seeing Clark deal with the street level psychos. Superman's supposed to be one of the smartest people on earth and he's a successful journalist, let's see more of that in play (this is part of why I love the 90's era Toyman so much)

We get an example of that every time he's on the Justice League.

[Ascended]

wth? and batman enemies aren't serious, you have to be kidding me

By "serious" I mean a walking WMD, extinction-level type of threat. Joker might get his hands on a bomb now and then, but even that's a small threat compared to what Sinestro is capable of doing while drinking his morning coffee.

If an intelligent and cunning villain able to crack the planet in half showed up in Bruce's backyard, how would he deal with it? That's what I'd like to see.

[Ascended]

We get an example of that every time he's on the Justice League.

Im talking about him dealing with it on his own. In the League he might come up with the game plan and get a few batarangs in, but he's part of a larger organization. I want to see him face it himself, with only his own supporting cast for aid, in Gotham itself. Batman's a different guy when Gotham is not directly threatened. He understands that what threatens the world threatens Gotham obviously, but outside of Gotham it isnt as personal for him. His temper seems a lot shorter when its his hometown.

I guess the recent hunt for Damien might fit what Im talking about. I didnt read it. Should I?

[Ascended]

Yeah but would that not upset the editorial mandates of the caped crusader being all supreme?

Not if he wins.

[TheDarkKnightReturns]

I've always wanted to see a story where a high-end superhuman shows up in Gotham and takes over. Let's see how Batman would handle dealing with a serious threat, instead of the insane clowns and gangsters he usually faces; someone who could go a few rounds with Superman. I'd like to see how a well written and intelligent super-powered villain would do in Gotham, and I'd love to see Batman's "Gotham is MY city!" mentality put to the test. When he's just dealing with Killer Croc or Scarecrow, that's all well and good but how would he do against someone like Sinestro?

Likewise, I always love seeing Clark deal with the street level psychos. Superman's supposed to be one of the smartest people on earth and he's a successful journalist, let's see more of that in play (this is part of why I love the 90's era Toyman so much)

Bring in the Spectre.