BATMAN & ROBIN ETERNAL #1 Preview/Discussion

[MajorHoy]

. . . Someday, I hope to open a comic where the intro scene is a bunch of superheroes eating pizza or something and discussing their separate victories in humorous ways. That way, you could keep the Mandatory Action Scene For The Newbs while doing something different.

You need to read a Brian Michael Bendis-written issue of New Avengers for stuff like that.

[JasonTodd428]

Well, I liked the look of this preview better then the other one we had before but I'm still very leery of Tynion here since he has been using melodrama as he go to prop for his work. I'll probably like the issues he's not writing and be annoyed in some way with the ones he writes. ("Dick Grayson . . . current sexy superspy"?!? What a clunker line that is. )

Jason still kills when he's doing his own thing. When he's with Batfamily he uses non-lethal force... It doesn't make much sense in my head, but it's what we've got.

With Jason having reconciled with Bruce and the others it makes sense to me that he would tend toward non-lethal force whenever he works with them. He's not the rage filled lunatic with a tendency toward violence and revenge that he was pre-reboot anymore and so he can hold himself back at least enough to work with them using their rules. I don't believe that he necessarily agrees with those rules though. In fact I'm pretty sure he doesn't since whenever he's doing his own thing, even in Gotham, he kills. It's really no different at it's core than Damian holding back his killing instincts to be Robin.

[dropkickjake]

I enjoyed the preview. This should be fun. I suppose we're kissing the pre-reboot family dynamics goodbye, which is quite the bummer as the Jason/Dick not getting along and Tim Damian not getting along were pretty fascinating. I suppose now the only time Jason fought against the bat family was UtRH. No battle for the cowl Jason trying to kill Tim, no Batman & Robin Red Hood and Scarlett v Batman and Robin, so I suppose it could make SOME sense in this continuity, but I'd still rather see the inter-family conflict.

"Sexy superspy," was pretty lame, but whatever.

[batsgrayson]

With Jason having reconciled with Bruce and the others it makes sense to me that he would tend toward non-lethal force whenever he works with them. He's not the rage filled lunatic with a tendency toward violence and revenge that he was pre-reboot anymore and so he can hold himself back at least enough to work with them using their rules. I don't believe that he necessarily agrees with those rules though. In fact I'm pretty sure he doesn't since whenever he's doing his own thing, even in Gotham, he kills. It's really no different at it's core than Damian holding back his killing instincts to be Robin.

Yes, I know Jason's relationship with the Batfamily is more friendly since the New 52. But like you said he doesn't agree we their rules so why should Jason be the one who has to sacrifice his moral code in order to work with them, why not them? And why are Bruce/Tim/Dick/etc. so willing to forget that when Jason is alone he does kill, since they all feel so strongly against it? It doesn't make sense.

I simply can't wrap my brain around it.

[joybeans]

Yes, I know Jason's relationship with the Batfamily is more friendly since the New 52. But like you said he doesn't agree we their rules so why should Jason be the one who as to sacrifice his moral code in order to work with them, why not them? And why are Bruce/Tim/Dick/etc. so willing to forget that when Jason is alone he does kill, since they all feel so strongly against it? It doesn't make sense.

I simply can't wrap my brain around it.

Because DC wants Jason showing up in Batfamily events.

[kaimaciel]

Jason still kills when he's doing his own thing. When he's with Batfamily he uses non-lethal force... It doesn't make much sense in my head, but it's what we've got.

After reading RHaTO, Batman and Robin and other crossovers where Jason interacted with Batman and the BatFamily, it does makes sense. He uses lethal force when he's on his own or with Roy. He doesn't when he works with the Bat Family. Bruce told him that he would never approve that he kills, but he also said that he won't try to stop or control Jason any longer, after that talk, Jason stopped killing while working with Batman and/or the Bat Family. Bruce also vouched for him to the Justice League so they wouldn't be arrested, although Superman wasn't very fond of the idea.

After having Jason as the black sheep, being there only to cause Batman angst and fight the rest of the family for years, thank God they changed that. It's not perfect and not everyone likes it, but for me I've wanted Jay to join the family for years! So there you have it, this seems to be the way to keep him as the Red Hood, still kills, but also returns to the family as a full member. I think it works and it's better than the alternative of constantly keeping Jason as the bad ex Robin, the crazy psycho with a bad case of Bat envy, trying to kill everyone, but that's my opinion.

[Raptor13]

i don't care what any of you say, I loved the 'sexy superspy' line lol

i loved this preview, can't wait for more

[JasonTodd428]

Yes, I know Jason's relationship with the Batfamily is more friendly since the New 52. But like you said he doesn't agree we their rules so why should Jason be the one who as to sacrifice his moral code in order to work with them, why not them? And why are Bruce/Tim/Dick/etc. so willing to forget that when Jason is alone he does kill, since they all feel so strongly against it? It doesn't make sense.

I simply can't wrap my brain around it.

I don't think they've suddenly forgotten that fact at all. Grayson already hinted at that in this preview when he reminded Jason not to use lethal force against this particular criminal and there have been other references to his "methods" in other titles as well. It's not that they've forgotten or are suddenly okay with his methods it's they've just come to accept that this is how Jason operates now. I think what's going on here is more akin to how they also ignore that Damian has killed people both in the past and even in the more recent past. (Nobody comes to mind there.) If Bruce and the others can except and work with Damian even though he does possess killer instincts then it's a bit incongruous to not except Jason as well. In fact it could well be that Bruce's acceptance of Damian despite his upbringing may have actually laid the foundation for his being able to reconcile both with Jason's methods and with Jason himself.

After reading RHaTO, Batman and Robin and other crossovers where Jason interacted with Batman and the BatFamily, it does makes sense. He uses lethal force when he's on his own or with Roy. He doesn't when he works with the Bat Family. Bruce told him that he would never approve that he kills, but he also said that he won't try to stop or control Jason any longer, after that talk, Jason stopped killing while working with Batman and/or the Bat Family. Bruce also vouched for him to the Justice League so they wouldn't be arrested, although Superman wasn't very fond of the idea.

After having Jason as the black sheep, being there only to cause Batman angst and fight the rest of the family for years, thank God they changed that. It's not perfect and not everyone likes it, but for me I've wanted Jay to join the family for years! So there you have it, this seems to be the way to keep him as the Red Hood, still kills, but also returns to the family as a full member. I think it works and it's better than the alternative of constantly keeping Jason as the bad ex Robin, the crazy psycho with a bad case of Bat envy, trying to kill everyone, but that's my opinion.

I actually prefer the way Jason is now myself. I'd take this version of Jason whose comfortable with who he is over the petulant child with daddy issues who was constantly moaning about how Bruce never cared about him any day of the week.

[joybeans]

After reading RHaTO, Batman and Robin and other crossovers where Jason interacted with Batman and the BatFamily, it does makes sense. He uses lethal force when he's on his own or with Roy. He doesn't when he works with the Bat Family. Bruce told him that he would never approve that he kills, but he also said that he won't try to stop or control Jason any longer, after that talk, Jason stopped killing while working with Batman and/or the Bat Family. Bruce also vouched for him to the Justice League so they wouldn't be arrested, although Superman wasn't very fond of the idea.

After having Jason as the black sheep, being there only to cause Batman angst and fight the rest of the family for years, thank God they changed that. It's not perfect and not everyone likes it, but for me I've wanted Jay to join the family for years! So there you have it, this seems to be the way to keep him as the Red Hood, still kills, but also returns to the family as a full member. I think it works and it's better than the alternative of constantly keeping Jason as the bad ex Robin, the crazy psycho with a bad case of Bat envy, trying to kill everyone, but that's my opinion.

The thing is that Jason originally stood out because he was a rogue, not a sidekick. He didn't need to constantly show up (ignoring Countdown and One Year Later for now), only when writers had a Jason-centric story arc planned around him. It was a very interesting concept, the idea of a former student of Batman that rejected his ideals, and twisted them into a different brand of justice.

That said, I'm always willing to give any new direction for a character a chance, even if it diminishes the initial appeal in the first place. The problem is that it just hasn't been implemented well by the creative teams involved, and just comes across as DC trying to tack on a few more sales by associating Jason more heavily with the Batfamily.

[batsgrayson]

I don't think they've suddenly forgotten that fact at all. Grayson already hinted at that in this preview when he reminded Jason not to use lethal force against this particular criminal and there have been other references to his "methods" in other titles as well. It's not that they've forgotten or are suddenly okay with his methods it's they've just come to accept that this is how Jason operates now. I think what's going on here is more akin to how they also ignore that Damian has killed people both in the past and even in the more recent past. (Nobody comes to mind there.) If Bruce and the others can except and work with Damian even though he does possess killer instincts then it's a bit incongruous to not except Jason as well. In fact it could well be that Bruce's acceptance of Damian despite his upbringing may have actually laid the foundation for his being able to reconcile both with Jason's methods and with Jason himself.

I guess you could argue that was Bruce's acceptance of Damian that changed his view on Jason and his methods. But then again Damian changed a lot since his introduction, in fact he's even shows remorse against the things he's done in the past and has actively tried to change his ways.

Obviously we are not on the same page on this. Maybe it's because I remember those late 90s early 00s Batman stories where everyone was vehemently against the Huntress and her M.O.

Because DC wants Jason showing up in Batfamily events.

That is my take on this as well.

[kaimaciel]

The thing is that Jason originally stood out because he was a rogue, not a sidekick. He didn't need to constantly show up (ignoring Countdown and One Year Later for now), only when writers had a Jason-centric story arc planned around him. It was a very interesting concept, the idea of a former student of Batman that rejected his ideals, and twisted them into a different brand of justice.

That said, I'm always willing to give any new direction for a character a chance, even if it diminishes the initial appeal in the first place. The problem is that it just hasn't been implemented well by the creative teams involved, and just comes across as DC trying to tack on a few more sales by associating Jason more heavily with the Batfamily.

I guess that's a matter of opinion. I found out about Jason Todd from the Batman Under the Red Hood movie, that was the movie that made me read the Batman comics in the first place, up until then I didn't even know there was more than one Robin! This was on 2011 and the New 52 had just started so I started reading comics from there and then went and looked at the pre New 52 out of curiosity. Aside from the Under the Red Hood and Lost Days, I didn't like the way they were portraying Jason and I was also mad that Damian was so well accepted when he was as murderous. Honestly, if the New 52 hadn't happened I would have stopped reading Batman (I'm biased, I know, I was reading mostly for Jason Todd).

So I guess it's understandable that older fans might feel differently about the characters since they've known them longer.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to Batman and Robin Eternal. I love the Bat Brothers working together and their different personalities!

[twincast]

Because DC wants Jason showing up in Batfamily events.

Otherwise known as having their cake and eating it, too. Really the core problem at the heart of the rewhatever.

Anyway, it wasn't perfect, but not being pre-Flashpoint, let alone pre-Identity Crisis, or Young Justice U (or my own AU ), how could it be? To me it at least pointed into a good direction compared to what's come before on Prime Earth with these three, so I did enjoy it.
Yes, the "sexy superspy" was cheesy, but in a playful way; that's totally fine in a comic book once in a while. And I really, really liked how they circumvented the moronic not-Robin retcon by numbering them as Batman's partners.
Tim being able to hack the palmprint recognition of a weapon that is extremely unlikely to have a wireless connection (Then again, who knows?) from a distance would annoy me a lot if it were a major plot point, but since it's just a little flavor titbit, I'm willing to let it slide.
That they're utterly nonchalant about Jason being an unremorseful murderer grates, though, but look, it's Dick and Tim in action together again! And if Jason weren't a budget Punisher the interaction would be nearly perfect after all. Then again, to be honest, Tim being in Gotham is already almost enough to hook me these sad days.

[JasonTodd428]

The thing is that Jason originally stood out because he was a rogue, not a sidekick. He didn't need to constantly show up (ignoring Countdown and One Year Later for now), only when writers had a Jason-centric story arc planned around him. It was a very interesting concept, the idea of a former student of Batman that rejected his ideals, and twisted them into a different brand of justice.

It was interesting up until they basically made Jason into a one note villain for Batman who was always harping on his issues with the family and always seeking their attention. Frankly, it became stale after a time because nothing was done to push him past that, to deal with his issues, or to even establish him as a full on villain of any caliber. It also kept him in the shadow of the Bat more then it helped to establish him as his own man. His reasons for doing what he did, his constant attacks on the Bats, his returning time and time again to Gotham; in my mind all of that did nothing but keep him connected at the hip to Batman even while he professing that he was a better Batman then Bruce and that he was going to do things his way because he was now his own man. DC dropped the ball with the character because they had no really clear direction for him to go after his resurrection and writers only ever brought him out when their own creative well had run dry.

Obviously we are not on the same page on this. Maybe it's because I remember those late 90s early 00s Batman stories where everyone was vehemently against the Huntress and her M.O.

Somehow I suspect if that version of Huntress was around now they would probably be more accepting of her though again they might not agree with her methods given how things stand.

[joybeans]

Yes, the "sexy superspy" was cheesy, but in a playful way; that's totally fine in a comic book once in a while. And I really, really liked how they circumvented the moronic not-Robin retcon by numbering them as Batman's partners.

I groaned at the "sexy superspy" line at first, but I found it to be fine when I read the other blurbs and realized it was supposed to come off as tongue-in-cheek.

Tim being able to hack the palmprint recognition of a weapon that is extremely unlikely to have a wireless connection (Then again, who knows?) from a distance would annoy me a lot if it were a major plot point, but since it's just a little flavor titbit, I'm willing to let it slide.

Reminds me of how Jason's guns were somehow remotely detonated in Batman Eternal.

[JasonTodd428]

I groaned at the "sexy superspy" line at first, but I found it to be fine when I read the other blurbs and realized it was supposed to come off as tongue-in-cheek.

That line made my cringe even knowing it was tongue-in-cheek. Among the blurbs there it was the worst one.

Reminds me of how Jason's guns were somehow remotely detonated in Batman Eternal.

I still don't see how that could even have happened in the first place.