The Crimes They Can't Punch

[t hedge coke]

I've been thinking, lately, of bat-comics about crimes that can't just be punched into submission the way Batman or Robin can slug a mugger and stop the mugging, slug a murderer, stop the murder. You can't punch out addiction. Vachss and Goodwin/Hampton showed Batman that you can't slug child abuse and end the crime.

And, of course, there are crimes that are crimes because the acts are illegal, but not worth punching or even, really, from Batman's perspective, cracking down on. Batman doesn't drop you for jaywalking, he's even overlooked the occasional pot dealer or squatter.

Batman pulled Ellie out of prostitution, across Morrison's Batman run, but he didn't harass her or any of the other women, and didn't even push anyone else to quit. Ellie really wasn't "up to it." She was a scared, depressed kid in an adult world (on top of which, the cops were ready to use her to pacify a rapey murdery ex-cop and nobody needs that in their life).

Any good recommendation for "he can't fix this" stories, where Batman still does all he can?

[JBatmanFan05]

Batman Seduction of the Gun
http://www.politedissent.com/archives/1682

Maybe some Alan Grant/Norm Breyfogle stories, they do some PSA-kinda stories about drugs and such where Batman can only do much for a wider problem that the issue is intending to scare the reader about.

[bholderman]

I've been thinking the same thing lately, especially in light of the Baltimore and Ferguson riots. How would Batman handle a social mess like that based in an immense socially divisive environment where right and wrong aren't quite known at the moment?

Or a mass shooting as occurred in Oregon yesterday?

[JBatmanFan05]

I've been thinking the same thing lately, especially in light of the Baltimore and Ferguson riots. How would Batman handle a social mess like that based in an immense socially divisive environment where right and wrong aren't quite known at the moment?

Or a mass shooting as occurred in Oregon yesterday?

Batman might do whatever the politics of the writer dictate. That's kind of the problem with such stories. There is no real "what would Batman do"....he's a fictional character subject to control by writers. That's why he mostly tackles things (murder, gangs/mobs, terrorism, serial killers, etc) where the solutions are something we can all mostly agree with (i.e. make it stop, send some people to jail).

Such stories about maybe Balt/Ferg/Oregon have two choices: 1) cater to both sides (which may irk both sides), 2) more controversially choose a side.

[HellHere]

Such stories about maybe Balt/Ferg/Oregon have two choices: 1) cater to both sides (which may irk both sides), 2) more controversially choose a side.

But Batman is anti-gun, it couldn't follow that he's anti-gun control. That side is hardwired into the character.

[db105]

Batman might do whatever the politics of the writer dictate. That's kind of the problem with such stories. There is no real "what would Batman do"....he's a fictional character subject to control by writers. That's why he mostly tackles things (murder, theft, terrorism, etc) where the solutions are something we can all mostly agree with.

Yes, of course Batman is a fictional character and he'll do what the writers have him do (or at least what the editors let the writers have him do). However, in many other situations we could have a consensus on what kind of responses would be "in character" for Batman.

In this kind of situations it's more difficult to have that consensus because there are few examples in canon. And there are few examples because the tools that mainstream superhero comics offer in principle are not the best to explore those multifaceted issues. Some creators try and even make it work, which is quite praiseworthy, but most would fail.

[JBatmanFan05]

But Batman is anti-gun, it couldn't follow that he's anti-gun control. That side is hardwired into the character.

That's questionable logic. You could personally not like guns, hate using guns, vow never to own one, but not want others' gun rights to be limited at all because of how you think the Constitution reads.

I myself think Batman probably would favor gun control, but I can see someone arguing against that, thinking that's a not necessary or implied view for him.


One might be anti-KKK, anti-KKK rallies, anti-Westboro Baptist protests, etc and not want those gathering and protest rights infringed upon (via some law) in the slightest. Anti-gun and pro-gun control are not synonymous, one can be one and not the other.

[bholderman]

Batman might do whatever the politics of the writer dictate. That's kind of the problem with such stories. There is no real "what would Batman do"....he's a fictional character subject to control by writers. That's why he mostly tackles things (murder, gangs/mobs, terrorism, serial killers, etc) where the solutions are something we can all mostly agree with (i.e. make it stop, send some people to jail).

Such stories about maybe Balt/Ferg/Oregon have two choices: 1) cater to both sides (which may irk both sides), 2) more controversially choose a side.

Agreed, I just brought it up. With the volatility of the real world problems are, the minute Batman did anything, he would be seen as taking a side. Logistically even with the entire Bat family in action would be an interesting scenario as well.

I do think, in the long run, there are aspects of life that Batman (and other heroes) just have to leave it to the police force and political heads to sort things out, allowing society to deal with who they are. My thoughts were more or less along the lines of how would a writer would tackle the scenario if he/she would make the effort to take it on.

[phantom1592]

That's questionable logic. You could personally not like guns, hate using guns, vow never to own one, but not want others' gun rights to be limited at all because of how you think the Constitution reads.

I myself think Batman probably would favor gun control, but I can see someone arguing against that, thinking that's a not necessary or implied view for him.

I doubt it greatly. He's been pretty adamant that the Robins or Batgirls don't use guns regardless of the situation. Because 'That's not how we do things'. Nothing about their personal rights or self defense.... There are a TON of Constitutional things that Batman breaks on a daily basis. He REALLY sees the Constitution as a flawed document that's he above for 'the greater good'.


I suspect that he would be completely in favor of outlawing all legal guns... and the illegal ones he'll run off the road with the batmobile before they get into the criminals hands

[t hedge coke]

Post-Crisis Batman is probably - probably, only - not in favor of lax gun laws allowing civilians easy and ready access to a lot of firearms. Pre-Crisis, though, Batman used guns on the rare occasion but had no real problem with other people, PIs, Alfred, et al, using them. He even congratulates Talia on her crack marksmanship at one point, for shooting someone who was about to kill him, though, over the course of that story, he becomes frustrated with her readiness to shoot and kill.

It does come down to the talent and editor at the moment, though, for that comic. There is no universal or pure Batman to decide these things (were he even a living being), so it comes down to interpretation every time.

[JBatmanFan05]

I doubt it greatly. He's been pretty adamant that the Robins or Batgirls don't use guns regardless of the situation. Because 'That's not how we do things'. Nothing about their personal rights or self defense.... There are a TON of Constitutional things that Batman breaks on a daily basis. He REALLY sees the Constitution as a flawed document that's he above for 'the greater good'.

All that regards Batman and his personal sphere of control, his Batfam, yes, he doesn't care about their rights, they're on his team, they share his opinions or bye bye (oh and Jason is allowed to use guns nonlethally!). Then there is the rest of the United States. There is nothing making it clear that Batman is a fascist (what I think is the way it should be for everyone not in my Batfam which protects Gotham only) or about what Bruce thinks about gun rights for a nation that stretches from Alaska to Florida to Hawaii.

Batman hasn't taken over the govt to enact gun control. He respects the govt and the Constitution generally (but yes, thinks he can violate whatever to protect corrupt Gotham) and in fact defends innocent peoples' rights.

At best there are "probablys" but, as has been said, no one pure Batman. Batman enjoyed his right to bear arms under his very creators (for a time).

[adkal]

The most 'direct' anti-gun story was the Seduction of the Gun one-shot...more than 20 years ago.

[Nite-Wing]

Batman is against a lot of things
Contrary to popular belief he is very liberal and if confronted by something like Fergusson or Baltimore he wouldn't even need to think before he sides against the police. I believe Batman never had an infallible trust with law enforcement outside of the silver age. He works with Gordon but if he wasn't police commissioner that would stop
Batman is himself anti establishment by virtue of being a vigilante. Far too often I see people color his perspective from the Bruce Wayne guise of being a billionaire when it reality that is just an act while his true self operates outside the system.

[Radix]

In regards to ferguson, Batman would check to make sure evidence surfaced that would guarantee a fair and just trial. But I cant see him dealing with a riot, and he doesnt strike me as one to directly fight police to protect protestors, let alone rioting protestors.

[ilovelocust]

I doubt it greatly. He's been pretty adamant that the Robins or Batgirls don't use guns regardless of the situation. Because 'That's not how we do things'. Nothing about their personal rights or self defense.... There are a TON of Constitutional things that Batman breaks on a daily basis. He REALLY sees the Constitution as a flawed document that's he above for 'the greater good'.


I suspect that he would be completely in favor of outlawing all legal guns... and the illegal ones he'll run off the road with the batmobile before they get into the criminals hands

Didn't Batman teach Dick to shoot 'just in case'?

Also, Batman's desire for his vigilantes to not use guns has always seemed to me like a mixture of staying on the good cops' good side by not killing (despite media impressions to the contrary, you have major arteries in your legs and shoulders. Human bodies aren't meant to have holes punched in them), hoplophobia, and narrative necessity (gun fights are much quicker and less action packed than fist fights). I at least haven't read any stories where he seems to object to non-criminal normal citizens owning guns.