How dark should Superman be?

[Flash Gordon]

Stealing this.

That is such a great line to describe Superman.

Kal himself has to be consistently bright, but the people and stories around him can vary greatly in tone.

Thanks!

10charas

[FishyZombie]

it depends on what kind of story the writer wants to tell tbh. I think the character has more range than people give him credit for. I generally think they always make Clark embody hope and optimism, regardless of the overall tone.

[bholderman]

I've always wanted to see a relentlessly dark and horrifying Superman story on the level of Punisher MAX or something. Because then you have a context for Supermans purity and optimism to actually be this resolute and shining force that genuinely defies the world around him. I've never seen anything close to this approach to Superman as I envision it.

I think there is a difference between a dark Superman and a dark Superman story. I completely agree that Superman might have to get hands on regarding some very ugly stuff, but then it's a situation where that brightness and optimism does shine though.

Well said.

[adkal]

I've tried to tackle some darker issues in some of my fan fic:

https://www.fanfiction.net/s/8908057...d-Old-Gray-Eye

Superman and Clark should tackle a lot of 'dark' things - I know there's an 'aversion' to it since someone like him tackling things head-on would change the world, but it also shouldn't be something he should be blind to.

In the beginning he tackled domestic abuse, corruption etc - and it was quick and clean and done.

Back in Byrne's run we had the issues in Suicide Slum - most people focus on the mind-abuse and the Barda stuff, but there was another layer with regards to the elderly, the homeless, and the vulnerable. Ditto, years later, with the Underworld stuff and Cadmus - but a lot of the aspects that linked back to these things were glossed over rather than fleshed out (because people read comics for escapism, right?)

Superman and Clark can and should be making a difference in their world - separately and together. It wouldn't happen overnight, and, sure, there would certainly be areas of escalation, but the differences would begin to manifest and take hold, in my opinion.

[Dispenser Of Truth]

Looking through it recently, I think short of a MAX style approach (which I wouldn't be averse to under the likes of Ellis or Ennis if they made an earnest go of doing it right) Superman: Secret Identity represents a solid benchmark for how dark Superman stories can get while still capable of fundamentally remaining a traditional Superman story.

[Powerboy]

no matter how dark his world gets he should always be the symbol of hope and remain the most compassionate superhero around. i know that's not considered "cool" to the jaded masses but that's what makes Superman unique and enduring.

Pretty much this. It's not how dark it gets but who he is. For instance, I really like the current Action Comics run and feel that that guy is the Superman I think of, no secret identity and all.

[ManSinha]

I think one of the potential answers to this question was eloquently given by General Zod in Superman II - with the dawning realization - "He cares about these creatures" - that to me is a defining quality that has the potential to elevate Superman as a character - no matter his enormous powers - he still has to go out of his way to ensure that the innocents do not come to harm - to use a cross world quote - "With great power comes great responsibility" only Kal-El was embodying that before Peter was a gleam in Stan's eye

[Potanical Pardon]

no matter how dark his world gets he should always be the symbol of hope and remain the most compassionate superhero around. i know that's not considered "cool" to the jaded masses but that's what makes Superman unique and enduring.

I'm the jaded masses. I love dark humor, dark tones, dark narratives. And I never want Superman to be dark. He should never be written that way. He stops being Superman at that point. Superman is cool specifically because the hope he represents separates him and only him as a superhero from everyone else. His RotDK appearance and subsequent portrayals diminishing those aspects of the character as precocious and unrealistic, overly simplistic and one moment away from losing it or becoming a fascist (usually prompted by a Lois Lane death) are fine for Elseworlds and whatever but not for THE Superman. The problem is really that certain writers don't know how to justify the character without coming across corny or reducing the character to a naive boy scout meathead.

Then doesn't the question become what is everyone's definition of "dark"? That's a pretty open to interpretation buzz word. Like does Clark's actions from Man of Steel count as dark? Know what I mean?

Just some food for thought.

Yeah. Quite a few of his actions in MoS count as dark. Busboy Superman wouldn't have twisted the trucker's truck around the electric pole. By the same token Superman II Superman shouldn't have returned to the diner to spin that dude in the chair and shove him down the counter even if he did pay for the damage later. I'm pretty sure those diner scenes weren't Donner, but the Four Musketeers guy. That pettiness is beneath Kal-El/Clark. That's some passive-aggressive BS that's un-Supermanlike. Smallville Clark pulled that crap almost every episode. There's no point in the MoS young Clark getting beat-up scene and Kevin Costner having a chit-chat. MoS Clark is dark because of one main moment sprinkled with others: He made out with Lois immediately after/during that shitstorm. I have a feeling Snyder realizes that now and hopefully DoJ corrects that so that he becomes something closer to what we know should be Superman.

[Ascended]

Superman himself shouldn't be a dark character. He should, as others have said, embody the best of us. I dont mind a little Superdickery here and there, and I dont mind him making some questionable calls once in a while (dude's not perfect after all), and he should never shy away from tough choices, but there's a difference between the character being dark, and his stories being dark.

The recent Horrorville arc works pretty well as an example. Its a horror genre story; a terrible, gross monster is eating people and mentally controlling a small town. No one can get in or get out. It's such a perfect setup for a horror story its essentially write-by-numbers. But then you inject Superman into it, and he's the bright light of optimism and raw determination that pushes back against the shadow. That's how you do it. You dont write Superman as a dark character; you put him in dark situations and let his light really shine.

I think a lot of people want Superman to exist within a very limited purview of story tone and theme. They want alien invasions and preachy "be the best you can be" stuff, where the worst thing Superman deals with is a power-hungry villain with dreams of world domination. But the character is so incredibly versatile (moreso than almost anyone else in comics) you can put him in any kind of story, and as long as Superman remains in-character, it works. He can investigate a gruesome string of murders in Suicide Slum (mystery), he can go after corrupt politicians (pulp), he can have wild and crazy adventures across space and time trying to find the perfect birthday present for Lois (comedy) he can face off against Aliens in a solar system with a red sun (sci-fi) travel to strange dimensions where elves and magic prevail (fantasy)....there's nothing you cant do with Superman, no place you can't go with him, as long as you follow one simple rule: Superman acts like Superman. As long as you keep that in mind and dont twist his personality to fit the themes/genre of the story, it will almost always work.

[Ascended]

Yeah. Quite a few of his actions in MoS count as dark. Busboy Superman wouldn't have twisted the trucker's truck around the electric pole. By the same token Superman II Superman shouldn't have returned to the diner to spin that dude in the chair and shove him down the counter even if he did pay for the damage later. I'm pretty sure those diner scenes weren't Donner, but the Four Musketeers guy. That pettiness is beneath Kal-El/Clark. That's some passive-aggressive BS that's un-Supermanlike. Smallville Clark pulled that crap almost every episode. There's no point in the MoS young Clark getting beat-up scene and Kevin Costner having a chit-chat. MoS Clark is dark because of one main moment sprinkled with others: He made out with Lois immediately after/during that shitstorm. I have a feeling Snyder realizes that now and hopefully DoJ corrects that so that he becomes something closer to what we know should be Superman.

I dont think a lot of those moments count as "dark". Petty? Certainly. But "dark"? I think thats pushing it. Wrapping that dude's truck around a pole in MoS was a passive-aggressive douche move (fitting I suppose, for a proto-Superman who had never been able to lash out physically but certainly not forgivable for a guy wearing the cape), but I think "dark" would have been something like a focused bust of x-rays to accelerate the growth of cancer cells in the guy's prostate. The Superman II bully-revenge? Well, since time had been altered (right? Havent watched that in years).....okay, that's just plain mean, and punishing a guy for actions he never actually took is crossing a line.

I think a bigger danger for Superman is his becoming passive-aggressive. He's not supposed to "punch down" (as Pak is so fond of reminding us) but writers still want him to be able to get even, rather than turning the other cheek. The compromise seems to be him being passive-aggressive. That works in some cases, like when Clark Kent uses his powers to turn one of Steve Lombard's cruel pranks back on him, but when taken to a "Superman" level it becomes too much. That's the trend I see unfolding, but I think people jump on the "dark" buzz word and take the actual meaning of the term away (much like "classic", and "epic")

But since there's no hard and fast definition for "dark" I suppose its really just personal preference.

[ManSinha]

The Superman II bully-revenge? Well, since time had been altered (right? Havent watched that in years).....okay, that's just plain mean, and punishing a guy for actions he never actually took is crossing a line.

If memory serves time had been altered in the first movie not the second -

I remember seeing that movie with my dad - and the entire movie hall erupted in applause at that last "bully" scene - at some level - people "want" him to show up the bully even his might is what would be the proverbial elephant versus ant comparison only more so - I think that is the reason that the "Get-back-at-Lombard" plot worked so well - people everywhere like to see bullies get their due

[Ascended]

If memory serves time had been altered in the first movie not the second -

I remember seeing that movie with my dad - and the entire movie hall erupted in applause at that last "bully" scene - at some level - people "want" him to show up the bully even his might is what would be the proverbial elephant versus ant comparison only more so - I think that is the reason that the "Get-back-at-Lombard" plot worked so well - people everywhere like to see bullies get their due

I think that's why Clark Kent is so important.

Superman has to be the example. He's not allowed to be petty. He can be a dick sometimes, he can make a bad joke now and then, but overall? He's got to be the guy who lets things slide.

Clark on the other hand, gets to have failings and get some revenge. He's allowed to set Lombard's hair on fire. He's allowed to trip a guy so he falls on his face. He can get away with the stuff Superman can't, as long as its in (more or less) self-defense. Clark cant start it, but he's allowed to finish it. Superman has to take his frustration out on Mongul, but Clark can fight back against the workplace bullies and other common, Everyman type confrontations we readers experience.

[Celgress]

no matter how dark his world gets he should always be the symbol of hope and remain the most compassionate superhero around. i know that's not considered "cool" to the jaded masses but that's what makes Superman unique and enduring.

Bravo, my thoughts exactly on this subject.

[Prime]

Superman himself shouldn't be a dark character. He should, as others have said, embody the best of us. I dont mind a little Superdickery here and there, and I dont mind him making some questionable calls once in a while (dude's not perfect after all), and he should never shy away from tough choices, but there's a difference between the character being dark, and his stories being dark.

The recent Horrorville arc works pretty well as an example. Its a horror genre story; a terrible, gross monster is eating people and mentally controlling a small town. No one can get in or get out. It's such a perfect setup for a horror story its essentially write-by-numbers. But then you inject Superman into it, and he's the bright light of optimism and raw determination that pushes back against the shadow. That's how you do it. You dont write Superman as a dark character; you put him in dark situations and let his light really shine.

I think a lot of people want Superman to exist within a very limited purview of story tone and theme. They want alien invasions and preachy "be the best you can be" stuff, where the worst thing Superman deals with is a power-hungry villain with dreams of world domination. But the character is so incredibly versatile (moreso than almost anyone else in comics) you can put him in any kind of story, and as long as Superman remains in-character, it works. He can investigate a gruesome string of murders in Suicide Slum (mystery), he can go after corrupt politicians (pulp), he can have wild and crazy adventures across space and time trying to find the perfect birthday present for Lois (comedy) he can face off against Aliens in a solar system with a red sun (sci-fi) travel to strange dimensions where elves and magic prevail (fantasy)....there's nothing you cant do with Superman, no place you can't go with him, as long as you follow one simple rule: Superman acts like Superman. As long as you keep that in mind and dont twist his personality to fit the themes/genre of the story, it will almost always work.

Action Comics 41 serves as an example as well.

[TheDarkKnightReturns]

Superman should be as dark as Big Boss.