NYCC: Simone, Scott Revamp Red Sonja, Vampirella & Dejah Thoris for Dynamite

[Dark-Flux]

I see a lot of, frankly, disingenuous concern about Vampirella’s iconic costume with regards to her “narrative context” along with no apparent knowledge of Vampirella’s actual narrative.

Vampirella, at least as originally conceived, is an alien with super strength and speed. She has shape shifting abilities and can fly. She also has the ability to cause sexual arousal in women and men but to a more extreme level in men. She also has the typical vampiric power to mesmerize. So her powers are ABOUT sex and have been since her inception. Her costume was created by a sixties feminist who wanted the character to project sexual empowerment. These are all easily found facts. Now, if you want to argue “broke back” or gross objectification or posing characters in the most pornographic and anatomically impossible poses possible then I will agree with you all the live long day and night on that. And I have no problem with the new Sonja or Deja redesigns even if the “raggedy cloak” thing is completely uninspired and straight out of the 90s.

However, Vampirella is different. Her redesign makes absolutely no narrative sense as it applies to the character. And if wanting narrative context is so important, then you should actually be championing Vampirella’s original, near 50 decades old iconic costume. Because the costume represents who and what she is just as surely as Batman’s costume represents everything that Bruce Wayne is. Vampirella is, for all intents and purposes not just a vampire but an alien. Just as Teen Titan Kori’s costume makes sense to her character as an alien whose race is more open and expressive about sex on her planet, so is Vampirella’s costume a statement about being an alien with the powers to cause sexual arousal from a society that is more sexually open. Her costume makes absolute sense in the character’s “narrative context”. When out of costume, Vampirella tends to wear gowns with a revealing slit and cleavage because even out of costume she’s still a sexual person who owns and flaunts her sexuality.

I actually don’t have a problem with giving Vampirella a variety of outfits, of which her iconic costume would be one. An evening gown, a bikini style outfit with a wrap around like you’d wear at the beach to cover below the waist. I wouldn’t even be completely against slight tweaks to the original as long as the spirit of the original is intact. Sort of like what Amanda Conner did with Kori’s costume. But really, it’s entirely possible to draw the iconic Vampirella costume in a more empowering way than we’ve seen. That is why I’m vehemently opposed to the new redesign and more interested in getting an artist who can draw the iconic costume in a more empowering way. The redesign shows absolutely no understanding of the character at all. It also makes no narrative sense in the context of the characters powers and abilities. And nothing reveals ones complete and utter lack of knowledge about Vampirella more than giving her a damn utility belt, crossbow and spandex bike shorts.

Here’s a good example. Take Hela, the character from the Thor comics. You wouldn’t give Hela a utility belt and a crossbow. It makes about as much “narrative” sense as a hard hat and a machine gun. Vampirella is somewhat comparable to Emma Frost with regards to the characters sexuality. However, Frost’s original costume wasn’t created to be about the character’s sense of sexual empowerment, it was entirely about male gaze and sexual objectification. Frost’s costume became about empowerment in future writers hands. This is completely the reverse of Vampirella whose costume as created by Trina Robbins, was originally conceived to be sexually empowered and the costume made that the clear statement. Over the years Frost has moved from panties and garters to tight leather pants. I would have no problem doing something similar with Vampirella as opposed to the ridiculous nonsense we are getting now that makes no “narrative” sense.

Also, Vampirella isn’t buffy. As originally conceived and through most of her development, Vampirella was never even remotely like Buffy just as Buffy was never a nod to Vampirella in the slightest. The two are completely different, their world view is completely different and informed by different experiences and culture. One is an alien who grew up and a sexually free world full of rivers of blood where the inhabitants gorged themselves. Buffy is a high school girl from earth who struggles with confidence and peer pressure. So turning Vampirella into Buffy(and we have to extrapolate this from the inane redesign and the ridiculous crossbow) shows a profound misunderstanding of Vampirella. Veronica Mars, for example, is comparable to Nancy Drew. Veronica Mars is not comparable to Sam Spade or Phillip Marlowe.

It makes sense for Vampirella to wear something revealing even when not protecting earth from evil because that’s who she is. It makes just as much sense for her to dress purposefully sexual when at work as her job is to combat evil via abilities that include mesmerizing and sexually arousing antagonists with specifically sexual abilities. What you don’t do with a job like that is dress as a carpenter on their way to frame a house.

Most people had nothing invested in Deja before her reintroduction in comics as the character had been out of the public eye for decades. And Red Sonja’s redesign is not much different than her original look. It maintains the spirit of Red Sonja and you know who the character is with her new look(although it would be easier without the raggedy medieval moo moo) . Vampirella however has been very much in the public consciousness since her inception. Cosplayers and models have been dressing in the iconic Vampirella costume regularly since the 70s. She wasn’t a character who was revived after a couple decades out of the public eye of fandom. She never left the public eye. Consequently, her redesign needed to be handled with more care and a hell of a lot more creativity. This new design clearly reflects neither.

Some good insights her, and a well thought out presentation. But my retort to this would pretty much be that if we're talking about the narrative context of Vampirella as she currently stands then I still dont think the classic costume makes much sense.
The current incarnation is not an alien. Hasnt been for a while. Shes a descendant of Lilith, the first woman and vampire. Very much of earth. Nor does she posses any particular powers of sexual seduction. At least beyond those any normal beautiful women might posses.
Now, this raises the issue of it being a completely different character to the original, but that in and of itself is a completely different issue. If we're talking the version of Vampirella that Dynamite is using, the one receiving this redesign then I personally dont think the classic get up is a good match.
You mentioned how Batmans costume represents everything about Bruce Wayne, but how many times has Batman changed costume now? Hell, the character himself is different in many ways to his original interpretation.

Though, I do agree that the new costume isnt particularly inspired or well thought out. And I definitely think they could have come up with something that was more of a modern interpretation of the classic outfit that what they have. Which is something the Red Sonja redesign does well imo.

[Dark-Flux]

Power is different for both sexes. How many women's magazines feature tough, powerful, successful women on their covers? Looking attractive on a cover is a form of power. I'll bet few of them are lifting weights, chopping wood or aiming guns or even looking mean or pissed off. While there is some overlap, men and women tend to do things differently.

Storm of the X-Men is powerful, majestic, badass and is idealized to boot. Are you understanding what I'm trying to describe?

But you get powerful looking women on the cover of sport magazines and the like.
Surely most superheros/barbarian warriors are more akin to athletes than glamour models?

Beauty is a form of strength. But its not really one to be sort after if going into battle with a super villain or a horde of orcs.

[Dark-Flux]

Conan's not getting a redesign. He's just wearing different clothes.

6 and two 3s. Sonja cant wear different clothes?

The loincloth isn't going away. Conan wears a loincloth, while Sonja wears a metal bikini. Those are usually the first images people think of when you mention those characters.

Sure. But that doesnt mean they cant wear alternate things. Conan does it all the time. The iconic look of the character (Frazetta/Schwarzenegger) doesnt effect that.

Since it's a Sword and Sorcery world, some characters are just as scantily clad as Sonja, if not moreso. That's why I never questioned the lack of clothes in those comics. Barbarians tend not to wear much as a trope.

*shrugs. No reason to play to tropes. Its a trope that female superheroe costumes are skimpy and revealing. Doesnt mean one cant or shouldnt go against that trend. And doesnt mean it wont work out.

[Cornelius]

Some good insights her, and a well thought out presentation. But my retort to this would pretty much be that if we're talking about the narrative context of Vampirella as she currently stands then I still dont think the classic costume makes much sense.
The current incarnation is not an alien. Hasnt been for a while. Shes a descendant of Lilith, the first woman and vampire. Very much of earth. Nor does she posses any particular powers of sexual seduction. At least beyond those any normal beautiful women might posses.
Now, this raises the issue of it being a completely different character to the original, but that in and of itself is a completely different issue. If we're talking the version of Vampirella that Dynamite is using, the one receiving this redesign then I personally dont think the classic get up is a good match.
You mentioned how Batmans costume represents everything about Bruce Wayne, but how many times has Batman changed costume now? Hell, the character himself is different in many ways to his original interpretation.

Though, I do agree that the new costume isnt particularly inspired or well thought out. And I definitely think they could have come up with something that was more of a modern interpretation of the classic outfit that what they have. Which is something the Red Sonja redesign does well imo.

I'd argue that any changes in Batman's costumes over the years have not been nearly as removed from the original look as this new Vampirella redesign. I mean, I've never seen a batman costume that consisted of cargo shorts, hiking boots, tool belt, cape and a tank top with the batman logo. Which is what this redesign would be comparable to. And yes, Vampirella's alien roots were changed but changed from an alien planet to a dimension of hell. I submit that Hell is just as removed and as otherworldly as an alien planet. That said, I think we're basically on the same page here. Thanks for the response.

[Wulf1984]

But you get powerful looking women on the cover of sport magazines and the like.
Surely most superheros/barbarian warriors are more akin to athletes than glamour models?

The physical heroines are more like athletes, while the heroines who use magic/powers are more like models. I used the example of women's magazines because that's how women tend to see themselves: beauty over strength.

Beauty is a form of strength. But its not really one to be sort after if going into battle with a super villain or a horde of orcs.

That would be true if we are talking reality. In comics, heroines can fight small armies and suffer only minimal bruises and cuts. It's escapism at it's finest -- the woman warrior looks beautiful and badass, no mere thug can hope to mar her beauty on the battlefield because of her extreme power level. It's the level of suspension of disbelief that is being disputed. Realistically, a woman in a metal bikini would be killed by the first enemy she fought. But we aren't talking realism.

6 and two 3s. Sonja cant wear different clothes?

Sure. But that doesnt mean they cant wear alternate things. Conan does it all the time. The iconic look of the character (Frazetta/Schwarzenegger) doesnt effect that.

When people try to get Sonja out of her iconic bikini, it's usually not trying to be a temporary change or a variant look like with Conan. Conan's loincloth will return in other stories. No one is trying to keep the iconic male barbarian in pants or armor from that point forward.

*shrugs. No reason to play to tropes. Its a trope that female superheroe costumes are skimpy and revealing. Doesnt mean one cant or shouldnt go against that trend. And doesnt mean it wont work out.

Is using tropes so terrible? I'd expect to see some bare skin in a barbarian title. Just like seeing suit of armor and horses in a medieval comic.

[Punisher007]

I take issue with the idea that "looking beautiful" automatically means "supermodel good looks and scantily-clad." If you HAVE to resort to that, then I question your creativity as a writer/artist. Especially since there's definitely a major double standard between the sexes in that regard in comics. Even when males character ARE drawn that way, they're usually depicted as "powerful" and "awesome" and to be admired, whereas with female ones is usually mostly, if not completely, about sex appeal. THAT'S the distinction. Now, onto the changes themselves, in order:

1. Dejah-That's a fantastic new look for her. Like really, not only is it well-designed, but it's pretty much how I'd expect/want her to look, well-done artist.
2. Vampirella-It's decent. I like parts of it more than others. I do kind of like the "biker" vibe that it gives off.
3. Red Sonja-It's basically her old outfit. Just not, you know, a bikini.

[Chickfighter]

That would be true if we are talking reality. In comics, heroines can fight small armies and suffer only minimal bruises and cuts. It's escapism at it's finest -- the woman warrior looks beautiful and badass...
Is using tropes so terrible? I'd expect to see some bare skin in a barbarian title. Just like seeing suit of armor and horses in a medieval comic.

Yes, there's no reason a comic can't embrace tropes, or more importantly what I would call idiom. Existing genre and character are important to some of us who want to read familiar pulp adventure stories for simple escapist pleasure. You might call it Dejah view all over again. And for us the current need to constantly reVamp existing icons is off-putting. Just give me a sexy heroine who battles baddies until eventually defeating them by her own agency and you've Sonja seeds of all I need in the story. I certainly understand that there's an audience who reads comics for other reasons. An audience that wants to see conventional plots and themes challenged. But can't new characters be created for that purpose rather than corrupting the classics?

[Punisher007]

Welp you're in luck or have you missed the boat? You seem to have the rhetoric down at least. Anyone being honest with themselves would agree this is fan service that does little to "serve the purpose of the narrative", and that's okay.

And here are there default COSTUMES:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...f3328ba686.jpg
http://www.yam-mag.com/wp-content/up...ostume-mcu.jpg
http://www.dhresource.com/albu_32615...ay-costume.jpg
http://www.dhresource.com/albu_32615...ay-costume.jpg

Notice the distinction. And yes, some token scenes of Stephen Amell or the Chris's with their shirts off in their down times is totally comparable to RS running into battle with a chainmail bikini, or Vampirella with a glorified G-string, or Dejah with just strategically-placed jewelry covering only the parts of her body that NEED to be covered for censorship reasons. Oh wait, no they aren't.

[Agent Z]

I see a lot of, frankly, disingenuous concern about Vampirella’s iconic costume with regards to her “narrative context” along with no apparent knowledge of Vampirella’s actual narrative.

Vampirella, at least as originally conceived, is an alien with super strength and speed. She has shape shifting abilities and can fly. She also has the ability to cause sexual arousal in women and men but to a more extreme level in men. She also has the typical vampiric power to mesmerize. So her powers are ABOUT sex and have been since her inception. Her costume was created by a sixties feminist who wanted the character to project sexual empowerment. These are all easily found facts. Now, if you want to argue “broke back” or gross objectification or posing characters in the most pornographic and anatomically impossible poses possible then I will agree with you all the live long day and night on that. And I have no problem with the new Sonja or Deja redesigns even if the “raggedy cloak” thing is completely uninspired and straight out of the 90s.

However, Vampirella is different. Her redesign makes absolutely no narrative sense as it applies to the character. And if wanting narrative context is so important, then you should actually be championing Vampirella’s original, near 50 decades old iconic costume. Because the costume represents who and what she is just as surely as Batman’s costume represents everything that Bruce Wayne is. Vampirella is, for all intents and purposes not just a vampire but an alien. Just as Teen Titan Kori’s costume makes sense to her character as an alien whose race is more open and expressive about sex on her planet, so is Vampirella’s costume a statement about being an alien with the powers to cause sexual arousal from a society that is more sexually open. Her costume makes absolute sense in the character’s “narrative context”. When out of costume, Vampirella tends to wear gowns with a revealing slit and cleavage because even out of costume she’s still a sexual person who owns and flaunts her sexuality.

I actually don’t have a problem with giving Vampirella a variety of outfits, of which her iconic costume would be one. An evening gown, a bikini style outfit with a wrap around like you’d wear at the beach to cover below the waist. I wouldn’t even be completely against slight tweaks to the original as long as the spirit of the original is intact. Sort of like what Amanda Conner did with Kori’s costume. But really, it’s entirely possible to draw the iconic Vampirella costume in a more empowering way than we’ve seen. That is why I’m vehemently opposed to the new redesign and more interested in getting an artist who can draw the iconic costume in a more empowering way. The redesign shows absolutely no understanding of the character at all. It also makes no narrative sense in the context of the characters powers and abilities. And nothing reveals ones complete and utter lack of knowledge about Vampirella more than giving her a damn utility belt, crossbow and spandex bike shorts.

Here’s a good example. Take Hela, the character from the Thor comics. You wouldn’t give Hela a utility belt and a crossbow. It makes about as much “narrative” sense as a hard hat and a machine gun. Vampirella is somewhat comparable to Emma Frost with regards to the characters sexuality. However, Frost’s original costume wasn’t created to be about the character’s sense of sexual empowerment, it was entirely about male gaze and sexual objectification. Frost’s costume became about empowerment in future writers hands. This is completely the reverse of Vampirella whose costume as created by Trina Robbins, was originally conceived to be sexually empowered and the costume made that the clear statement. Over the years Frost has moved from panties and garters to tight leather pants. I would have no problem doing something similar with Vampirella as opposed to the ridiculous nonsense we are getting now that makes no “narrative” sense.

Also, Vampirella isn’t buffy. As originally conceived and through most of her development, Vampirella was never even remotely like Buffy just as Buffy was never a nod to Vampirella in the slightest. The two are completely different, their world view is completely different and informed by different experiences and culture. One is an alien who grew up and a sexually free world full of rivers of blood where the inhabitants gorged themselves. Buffy is a high school girl from earth who struggles with confidence and peer pressure. So turning Vampirella into Buffy(and we have to extrapolate this from the inane redesign and the ridiculous crossbow) shows a profound misunderstanding of Vampirella. Veronica Mars, for example, is comparable to Nancy Drew. Veronica Mars is not comparable to Sam Spade or Phillip Marlowe.

It makes sense for Vampirella to wear something revealing even when not protecting earth from evil because that’s who she is. It makes just as much sense for her to dress purposefully sexual when at work as her job is to combat evil via abilities that include mesmerizing and sexually arousing antagonists with specifically sexual abilities. What you don’t do with a job like that is dress as a carpenter on their way to frame a house.

Most people had nothing invested in Deja before her reintroduction in comics as the character had been out of the public eye for decades. And Red Sonja’s redesign is not much different than her original look. It maintains the spirit of Red Sonja and you know who the character is with her new look(although it would be easier without the raggedy medieval moo moo) . Vampirella however has been very much in the public consciousness since her inception. Cosplayers and models have been dressing in the iconic Vampirella costume regularly since the 70s. She wasn’t a character who was revived after a couple decades out of the public eye of fandom. She never left the public eye. Consequently, her redesign needed to be handled with more care and a hell of a lot more creativity. This new design clearly reflects neither.

The thing about this argument is that it ignores that the characters have no control over what they wear. They are fictional characters at the mercy of the writers and the artists and what their costumes represent is what real life people decide.

[Wulf1984]

Yes, there's no reason a comic can't embrace tropes, or more importantly what I would call idiom. Existing genre and character are important to some of us who want to read familiar pulp adventure stories for simple escapist pleasure. You might call it Dejah view all over again. And for us the current need to constantly reVamp existing icons is off-putting. Just give me a sexy heroine who battles baddies until eventually defeating them by her own agency and you've Sonja seeds of all I need in the story. I certainly understand that there's an audience who reads comics for other reasons. An audience that wants to see conventional plots and themes challenged. But can't new characters be created for that purpose rather than corrupting the classics?

That's what I would like. Just make new original characters for all of that. No licensing fees. How hard is it to make clothed up, toned down warrior women that aren't Red Sonja, Vampirella and Dejah Thoris?

[Fused]

And here are there default COSTUMES:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...f3328ba686.jpg
http://www.yam-mag.com/wp-content/up...ostume-mcu.jpg
http://www.dhresource.com/albu_32615...ay-costume.jpg
http://www.dhresource.com/albu_32615...ay-costume.jpg

Notice the distinction. And yes, some token scenes of Stephen Amell or the Chris's with their shirts off in their down times is totally comparable to RS running into battle with a chainmail bikini, or Vampirella with a glorified G-string, or Dejah with just strategically-placed jewelry covering only the parts of her body that NEED to be covered for censorship reasons. Oh wait, no they aren't.

Doublethink must truly be exhausting. All I was addressing is that the female gaze and the objectification of the male form exists, but people like to ignore that just as much as Conan and John Carter's default costumes.

[The Patriot]

As for Vampirella my only gripe is that they have designed an entirely new character. Which if that is the case why not have a new character and not an unrecognizable old one. As for the other 2, I think the redisigns are good if they are secondary looks. Meaning their standard look should be their original look, meaning barely clothed. The majority of the time they ought to be nearly naked. And to be honest so should Conan, John Carter, HeMan, Tarzan, Kamandi, etc...Because sex appeal, cheese/beef cake aside, that's what makes sense for their respective univereses. There's a time and a place for clothes or armor, but most of the time they should look like their classic designs.

[Brave Sir Robin]

I think this article is great news. I am a big fan of most of what Simone does, including Red Sonja. So I think Simone guiding these characters could be a lot of fun.
I have enjoyed Vampirella lately. So I don't know that she needs an overhaul. But I think Dynamite is going to reboot all three in a similar vein or sensibility that will connect the three words in the way they portray the female heroes. I have never much enjoyed the Martian book so I am interested to see if I find that one entertaining.
As far as the costumes, making those less gratuitous is fine with me. If nothing else, they will look less overtly silly.

[ChastMastr]

Actually, I find the be-loinclothed (or nude!) Conan and Tarzan and John Carter such, and less- or unclad Herc and Logan and others, to be incredibly hot. Perhaps I just find the "power fantasy" art to be attractive in that way.

[ChastMastr]

And Vartox, as my avatar here may suggest.