What if... the U.S. Military occupied the Game of Thrones universe?

[Custodes]

The magic on Westeros is too subtle to affect a modern army with modern weapons. We don't fight without the things you listed as banned either. They always go together.

[MidTierHero]

People forget that alot of the superiority of modern armies comes from having superior doctrine, training, tactics, and command structure. Not just from having better equipment. If you took a United States Marines regiment into the distant past, and gave them nothing but swords, bows, spears and shields, within a few weeks you'd still have Hoplite/Pikeman army that could rival or defeat any ancient army, even that of Sparta or Rome. (defeating Rome would be more impressive than Sparta, btw)

We know how to train soldiers now way more efficiently. We know how to effciently organize and command. We have small-unit-tactics, which basically didn't exist in the ancient world. Most of all, we have an robust, competent NCO corps, something that also didn't exist in the ancient world, and doesn't really exist in most third-world armies today. (which is alot of the reason why they suck, not just because of gear)

a Spartan or a Legionnaire is just a cog, a warrior. A Marine or an Army Infantryman is a soldier, he knows how to think, how to show initiative, how to work together in teams and solve problems on his feet. A warrior from an ancient culture just knows how to swing his sword, stay in formation, and obey the orders of the general. There's a fundamental difference in the way war is waged today that has nothing to do with having superior technology.

And yet the "superior" modern soldier routinely get all kinds of crap kicked out of him when faced with a disciplined enemy who is able to remove the technological advantage said modern soldier has become reliant on.

[Captain Smith]

But the disciplined enemies that supposedly kick the crap out of modern armies also have firearms, rocket launchers, radios, grenades and the like. They usually do not stand in conventional battles but hang in there for a political win.

Westeros does not produce such opposition.

[Arundel Armor Hunter]

Wildlings could be a good guerilla force and the Dothraki could do the same.

[The Drunkard Kid]

Even then, those are really only effective because they can kill important individuals, and in the fuedal/medieval society of Westeros, everything can unravel at the death of a single lord.

Where as in modern, professional militaries, there are things like order of succession and chain of command, and a competent NCO corps. If your shadow-curse horribly slaughters Col. Beefneck, then Lt. Col Meatslab, his Xo, steps into his places an they continue the mission/operation as planned. If a face-changer assassin kills Senior Master Sergeant Manbeef, then Master Sargeant Rockface becomes the regiments's new Master At Arms (or whatever he was)

And given the very high cost, and slow charge time, of Westeros magic like that, the casters will probably be dead from sniper rounds (or artillery, or just an infantry assault pounding their position with SAW fire and 203's until they're rubble) before they have a chance to do it again.

I was thinking more along the lines of a Faceless Man or twelve poisoning the modern soldiers food and water, possibly with something that is slow acting to prevent early recognition. Or somehow arranging for the spread of a virulent disease that the soldiers might not immediately be able to treat.

[Endless_Legend]

Roman legionaries of the Principate (1st and 2nd centuries AD, when the empire was at its peak) were also professional soldiers. I cannot speak for Sparta, because I simply do not know enough about them. There were small-unit tactics in a Roman army. A legion (5,000 men) was divided into 10 cohorts, with the first 9 cohorts consisting of 480 men and the tenth cohort consisting of 800 men. Each cohort was then divided into 6 centuries of 80 men. Contrary to popular belief, the Roman army was a highly flexible force, because, (just like a modern, western army) it had smaller units, each under the command of an officer.

If you want an example of a battle where ancient soldiers showed initiative, see the Battle of Cynoscephalae (198 BC). Here, an unnamed Roman tribune, took roughly 2,000 men and out-flanked the Macedonian army, leading to the enemy's defeat. He did this completely independently of the general. Also, I hope you aren't expecting your US marines to fight as pikemen. This is because the Romans excelled at kicking the crap out of tightly packed, phalanx troops. The Battles of Pydna (168 BC) and Magnesia (190 BC) are prime examples of this.

Oh, no, the scenario specified that the Marines get their modern equipment. Given how well read most Marine officers are on military history, even if they did use ancient gear, they'd know better than to try to do that. Considering that was exactly how the Romans defeated the Greeks, by doing the things you just described.

You're right, though, the Legions were probably the first example of a modern, dynamic, tactically flexible army. That's probably the reason that they kicked everyone's asses until the Germanic tribes finally started copying them and using the same training methods and tactics.

[Endless_Legend]

And yet the "superior" modern soldier routinely get all kinds of crap kicked out of him when faced with a disciplined enemy who is able to remove the technological advantage said modern soldier has become reliant on.

Give examples? When has that ever, ever happened? To my knowledge, it has not.

If you're talking about Vietnam, we killed 3 or 4 times our number of VC and NVA during every battle. We only "lost" the war because the rules of engagement were so hamstrung, because of gross incompetence and micromangement on the part of our civilian leadership, and because public support for the war eroded to the point that we had no will to continue. Even during the famous Tet offensive, almost every single battle during the offensive ended with the NVA being slaughtered. The reason it was a big deal is because it proved that the NVA still had major fight left in them, and destroyed the narrative that Washington had tried to sell to the public that the NVA had lost the will to resist.

If you're talking about the occupation of Iraq or Afganistan, same thing. In almost every single conventional engagement, insurgent or Taliban forces were massacred almost to a man. Of the casualties we took in both sandbox wars, only something like 5% were due to enemy fire. More than that were killed by friendly fire, and the overwhelming number were due to IED explosions.

(and of course, during the initial invasions of each, the actual conventional war part, it was so one-sided that even most frontline trigger-pullers were more worried about dying from dehydration or friendly fire than from the actual enemy)

Are you talking about the Korean War? Hate to break it to you, but North Korean and Chinese armies were modern, professional armies just like the UN coalition that fought for South Korea. They had similar gear, command structure, and even comparable jet fighters and tank divisions. They don't count as an example for you.

The only times that non-professional warriors have been overwhelmed and killed by guerillas or tribal fighters have been when, from bad top-down leadership, they've been sent into situations where they were massively outnumbered and had no way to call for backup or for resupply. Is that what you're referring to? Things like Operation Red Wings, Operation Gothic Serpent, and Operation Anaconda?

What is this time when modern soldiers "got the crap kicked out of them" by archaic or primitive warriors that you're talking about? Please, I'd like to know.

[Endless_Legend]

I was thinking more along the lines of a Faceless Man or twelve poisoning the modern soldiers food and water, possibly with something that is slow acting to prevent early recognition. Or somehow arranging for the spread of a virulent disease that the soldiers might not immediately be able to treat.

That's possible. Disease and lack of water/food were a major problem in Iraq/Afganistan. But Marines and Army tend to keep water supplies in the field in the form of massive stacks of water bottles, and massive crates full of MREs. I suppose the Faceless Men could poison those, but that's alot of water bottles to somehow open, poison, and then seal again without getting noticed or killed by guards.

[Endless_Legend]

But the disciplined enemies that supposedly kick the crap out of modern armies also have firearms, rocket launchers, radios, grenades and the like. They usually do not stand in conventional battles but hang in there for a political win.

Westeros does not produce such opposition.

Yep. and again, extreme ephasis on "supposedly", since that doesn't actually happen, like ever. Their overall strategy is always "annoy Western forces until they decide it's not worth the trouble to keep occupying us", more or less.

[The Drunkard Kid]

That's possible. Disease and lack of water/food were a major problem in Iraq/Afganistan. But Marines and Army tend to keep water supplies in the field in the form of massive stacks of water bottles, and massive crates full of MREs. I suppose the Faceless Men could poison those, but that's alot of water bottles to somehow open, poison, and then seal again without getting noticed or killed by guards.

You can also contaminate the containers themselves. Anyone whose lips touch the area below the cap of their water bottle or handle their packaged food with bare hands can be exposed. And so on, and so forth.

[Endless_Legend]

You can also contaminate the containers themselves. Anyone whose lips touch the area below the cap of their water bottle or handle their packaged food with bare hands can be exposed. And so on, and so forth.

That's true. They could kill alot of soldier/marines.

Of course, we have procedures for that kind of stuff too. They'd greatly increase security on food stores and go into NBC warfare protocols. What else can the Faceless Men do besides changing their faces? Can they fool minds or something? If not, the Marines are going to start discovering and killing them pretty soon.

[BitVyper]

Well there was Millenium Challenge 2002, where "Iran" obliterated the US Navy. Granted, that was a wargame, and it was still simulating a war with a modern military, just an extremely one-sided war with an outdated, underequipped modern military. And then they changed the rules to "America always wins" anyway.

I mostly just bring it up because I find the whole affair hilarious.

[Endless_Legend]

Well there was Millenium Challenge 2002, where "Iran" obliterated the US Navy. Granted, that was a wargame, and it was still simulating a war with a modern military, just an extremely one-sided war with an outdated, underequipped modern military. And then they changed the rules to "America always wins" anyway.

I mostly just bring it up because I find the whole affair hilarious.

Briefly read about that here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Challenge_2002

Apparently the original scenario directed the US Navy to turn off all defensive systems and take no defensive or offensive actions in response.

So yeah, if the Iranians launched a swarm of Exocet missiles from all their little gunboats, and the US Carrier Battlegroup just sat their with their Phalanx and Harpoon batteries turned off and did nothing... yes, the Iranians could wipe out the US Navy.

That's referred to around here as "intentional curbstomp", isn't it? That isn't any more a valid scenario than the second one where the US won a scripted victory. Seems like the entire thing was a waste of time, and the guy who administrated it said so afterwards.

Where as, in real life, all of those anti-ship missiles would be shot down by CIWS and anti-missile batteries.

[T51R]

Where as, in real life, all of those anti-ship missiles would be shot down by CIWS and anti-missile batteries.

Actually, they wouldn't even be there to pose a threat in the first place. Not after the Tomahawks and Harpoons get sent out their harbours and lay waste to them. Modern warfare is a multi-tier team sport, and a huge part of the team, for any nation, is that nation's intelligence service.

[MidTierHero]

@Endless_Legend: And yet to this day, casualties are still coming home from Afghanistan, large parts of the country (i.e. outside the cities) represent no-go zones for US troops unless they are in extreme force, and the US is still forced to negotiate with the Taliban for the release of POWs. A truly satisfactory end to the conflict is nowhere in sight, despite the statistics produced by the DoD. So how is this a "win"?

Are you in the military, perchance?