Best Superman Story of all time....The Dark Knight Returns!?!?

[Mantis Girl 94]

First I want to start by saying that since I was a wee lass I have read comics; and through the love of comics that my daddy installed in me I love both Superman and Batman equally.

Now on to the purpose of this thread. After reading a thousand message boards I have seen countless posts about the "best Superman story ever", and a lot of times people will say; "All Star Superman" or some other run....

Also; I see a thousand threads saying that DKR was bad for Kal. I am here to disagree and state why DKR is one of the best (if not the best) Superman story of all time!


Let's review DKR:

The 1st time we see mention of Kal in Miller's dark future is in book one is when we see him in the form of a t-shirt worn by Dr. Wolper. The Doctor believes that Harvey Dent is cured, he believes he deserves a second chance, he believes in man's inherent tendency to be "good". It may just be a t-shirt but the way the doctor feels is very much the way Kal feels and has always felt. +1 for Superman

The 2nd time we see mention of Kal is when you see his symbol only (along with the American Flag) in the White House talking with the President. Kal goes out of his way to be very respectful of an obviously senile old man. I don't see this as corny, but as something only Kal would do. He could easily be the president himself with all his powers but that is not his way. Kal...Clark Kent... the all American boy! +1 for Superman

We don't hear from Kal again until book 3. He flies over the corrupt city of Gotham and we get to read his first thought bubbles/boxes of this series. He laments about Bruce ruining everything like he always knew he would. It shows here that Kal knew Bruce would do some "stupid stuff" in his day but Kal never stopped him or tried to force his will upon him (like so many others with that kind of power would have). Again, typical Kal (this is a good thing). Next we hear the mighty rumble of Kal travelling under ground at terrific speeds; a feat not many others could ever hope to accomplish. He bursts from the ground to stop the nazi woman/mutant without breaking all her bones or maiming her. He then flies out of the building so fast he is only a blue blur and the little Robin girl stops and stares in awe at the most powerful being in the universe. The hero worship in her eyes give me chills. +1 for Superman

The next picture/appearance of Kal is the best picture of Kal of all time. He is dressed as Clark in riding jeans and a white blouse open to the naval, showing off his massive chest and manly physique, and to top it all off the knee high leather riding boots. The clouds, the butterfly, the rocks, the grass, even Bruce all pay homage to the greatest hero of all time just with the way they look at him. Even the horse (look at the grey horse's eyes... she is staring right at the most powerful being ever). +1 Superman

The symbolism of Kal in these two pages is not mockery or anything like that...it is true hero worship. It is Miller acknowledging that Kal is the greatest hero ever!

The next page shows Kal as Superman racing to save the world once again. Something no other hero has done even half as many of times.

We also see later Kal trying to stop the giant nuke-bomb rocket. We also see Bruce thinking; "Clark you idiot, you let them do it". Now what was Kal supposed to do? Take over the world and dictate how everyone should live and what weapons they can or cannot make? That's not Kal. That's not Superman. I for one applaud Kal for not interfering in the lives and enforcing his sense of morality on every human on the planet. +1 Superman

The next part where Kal is slowing dying and "talking" to the Earth; "Mother, you are so Generous" brings tears to my eyes. This is an alien from a billion light years away that loves our planet more than we do. +1 Superman

Now, on to the section of book 4 everyone hates (meaning Superman fans). You see Kal as he lets himself get pounded by 6 hunter missiles. We all know he would of heard them coming for miles and instead of dodging them and taking the chance they could strike somewhere else he allows them to detonate on his body; this is another first class move for Kal. +1 Superman

Onto the battle with Bruce. It does not matter that he was near death after the nuclear explosion...even at 1/100,000th of his power Kal could of easily punched his fist through Bruce's helmet and crushed his skull faster than mortal eyes could follow...but that's not Superman, that's not Kal. He allowed (yes ALLOWED) Bruce to punch himself out on him. That is what a Superman would do. Disregard all the "Bruce thought bubbles" during the fight and you will begin to see the Kal we all know and love. The man who even after letting his best friend pummel him still stands up for him in his final moments; "Don't touch him". +1 Superman

The wink to little Robin at the funeral was the icing on the cake. It proved to me that even without the intention too, that Miller just wrote the best Superman story of all time....and he didn't even know it!

Okay, that is my rant....let me hear yours

[Ascended]

You know....you make a good argument. I think this might be the first time someone has made me look at Superman's role in DKR in a new light. I still dont agree, but you've got some good points.

I'll write a more involved reply later, but right now I should be starting the homework that's due in a few hours.

[Prime]

No, this is the comic that started the whole "Superman is boring" trend. It's good for Batman, but it's an abomination to Superman.

[Jim Kelly]

It was drawn by Frank Miller and therefore could not possibly be the best story. The best story would have to have both the best Superman script and the best Superman art.

[Prime]

And the sequel was even worst. Batman being all condescending to Superman was way to much. I love how Lara told he that she could find him and rip him apart.

[Dr. Banner]

Not even close. Awful story.

[adkal]

Disregard all the "Bruce thought bubbles" during the fight and you will begin to see the Kal we all know and love. The man who even after letting his best friend pummel him still stands up for him in his final moments; "Don't touch him". +1 Superman

You don't need to disregard Bruce's thought bubbles - he makes it quite clear (in his thoughts) that he knows Clark is holding back, that he would be dead if Clark wanted him to be, that he would be incapacitated before the fight even started if Clark wanted him to be...

[t hedge coke]

Superman, in DKR, saves millions of lives, if not the entire world. The sky and animals and flowers love him. People love him. He's lovable. He's a good man.

Batman thinks he's shortsighted, but if he didn't want to shut Batman down on orders from the President, Batman and he wouldn't have had a fistfight that ends in Batman "dead."

And the sequel was even worst. Batman being all condescending to Superman was way to much. I love how Lara told he that she could find him and rip him apart.

He's deliberately condescending. He's trying to agitate him into action.

And, the entire superhero pile-on is essentially a ruse to get a communications device on Superman without Luthor or Braniac knowing, as we see later. Superman is as trapped, in DKSA as the Flash or the Atom were and they know it. Batman in DKR and DKSA is totally jealous of Superman, but he's not that jealous. The gloves he uses are the same gloves he used in Brave and the Bold to fake-fight Superman for a dying millionaire twenty-plus years earlier.

It's a mirror of the beating Batman takes from Luthor towards the end, another beating that's brutal but entirely a blind.

Superman could have gone balls to the wall at any point and done whatever he wanted. Superman, Clark Kent, Kal El, whatever you call him, isn't that guy. He's not a do whatever he wants guy. He's restrained. He tries to let other people handle things first. Believes in the people. The greater good.

No, this is the comic that started the whole "Superman is boring" trend. It's good for Batman, but it's an abomination to Superman.

Superman isn't presented as remotely boring in either DKR or DKSA. He's huger than huge, he's glorious, he's heroic and handsome and powerful and saves people. He's psychologically complex. He's emotional. He takes an ICBM to save a city and is brought back to health by the very ground and flowers of the world that adopted him as its own.

Superman's a straight up operatic god in DKR.

[lancerman]

Yeah most people are too busy raging against a Superman working for the government to realize that he's the noblest character in the book. Especially in the context of every other Superhero being forced to retire and the one who came out inevitably realizing that he had to fake his death.

There's something inherently interesting about a character who see's the status who of his world change, and decides that the lesser evil is to put himself in a position where he can still help people and be a force for good, than go rogue and start a World War III because he doesn't like the people that were put in charge.

It's the same scenario as Red Son except Superman never becomes disillusioned to reality.

But bla blah Batmsn got Kryptonite and beat a weakened Superman up for a few pages at the end, because god forbid another character gets to make a valid opposing point at Superman's expense.

[Burning Eyes]

It doesn't matter if he was presented as the most mature character within the story, because The Dark Knight Returns is the story that started the trend resulting in Pop Culture believing that Superman is "Boring".
That's my opinion, anyway.

[t hedge coke]

It doesn't matter if he was presented as the most mature character within the story, because The Dark Knight Returns is the story that started the trend resulting in Pop Culture believing that Superman is "Boring".
That's my opinion, anyway.

I'm game, but can you provide any evidence for it? That it started there, not earlier or later, or with other major contributing factors?

[HsssH]

Sometimes I think that most of the people that write about how Miller destroyed Superman never actually read any of his work and are basing their opinion on few panels/pages that were taken out of the context and are floating around the internet.

[manduck37]

The problem with TDKR isn't how Superman is portrayed. It's in how people completely missed the point of the book and misinterpreted the story. They take it at face value that Batman could just beat the tar out of Superman without really reading what's going on. Superman in TDKR is just an extrapolation of what Superman was in the early 80's. He's taken to an extreme and exaggerated a bit. It's an out of continuity story after all. Really that's done because Superman is a stand in for "the government" while Batman is a stand in for "the everyman". TDKR is about politics. Both Batman and Superman aren't meant to be representations of the actual heroes. They're stand-ins for the themes of the book. Though I've seen plenty of posts and reviews that show the reader missed the point of the story. So chalk it up to a misunderstanding I guess.

[Johnny Thunders!]

I have heard the justifications as to why Superman is actually magnificent in Millers saga and after retreading both, that's clearly not the intention. He is occasionally set up as an an inflated icon , but that's only to reinforce Batmans feat at taking him down. Superman is compromised, manipulated by both Luthor and Bataman, shrunken shouldered, his greatest feat is doing nothing so that Batmans scheme works. Even his daughter and partner condescend to him because he's a shell of what he was, and that's Millers intention. The only true Superman in Dark Knight is Bruce Wayne. It's a hatchet job just like Mad Magazines Super Duperman. That's the point, Superman, like the U.S is betrayed by his own naive ideals and empty power, better to be your own man like Batman. I can think of several stories that tell me more about Superman, read Superman Annual 10, the Last Days of Superman, Miracle Monday, Superman Beyond, Whatever Happned to the Man of Tomorrow, Superman 400. You don't have to argue why those stories are compelling portraits of Superman, they just are.


Having said that, I'm a huge fan of the Dark Knight series but Millers intention was to portray Superman as compromised, naive, and simple minded. No Superman worth his salt couldn't figure out how to rescue the JLA on his own and defeat Luthor/ Braniac. He's been doing that for years and this was specifically meant to not be that story.

[lancerman]

The problem with TDKR isn't how Superman is portrayed. It's in how people completely missed the point of the book and misinterpreted the story. They take it at face value that Batman could just beat the tar out of Superman without really reading what's going on. Superman in TDKR is just an extrapolation of what Superman was in the early 80's. He's taken to an extreme and exaggerated a bit. It's an out of continuity story after all. Really that's done because Superman is a stand in for "the government" while Batman is a stand in for "the everyman". TDKR is about politics. Both Batman and Superman aren't meant to be representations of the actual heroes. They're stand-ins for the themes of the book. Though I've seen plenty of posts and reviews that show the reader missed the point of the story. So chalk it up to a misunderstanding I guess.

That's not even what's happening...

Superman is making the best of bad situation because it's the only way he can continue to help people without having a war and that's what superman cares about. Superman lost a fight where he was weakened, and not trying to do any damage, and then Batman got his advantage for 5 seconds to make a point about how they were raised differently and he couldn't adapt the way Superman could and choose not to. Then Supes let Batman continue to play his game even though he could have alerted the government.

They weren't representations of anything besides themselves.

The wrong thing people took away from it was the idea that Superman was some evil government stooge or a villain.