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  1. #31
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    When you think about it, Kingdom Come has basically the same arc for Superman that DKR has for Batman.

    Retires after the death of a loved one (Jason and Lois).

    Comes back 10 years later as the world gets darker and darker.

    Initially accomplishes some good, but finds that the world is too complicated to punch things back into place and starts causing a further escalation.

    At the end is forced to make drastic changes to his methodology and worldview to be more effective.

  2. #32
    Ultimate Member t hedge coke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    When you think about it, Kingdom Come has basically the same arc for Superman that DKR has for Batman.

    Retires after the death of a loved one (Jason and Lois).

    Comes back 10 years later as the world gets darker and darker.

    Initially accomplishes some good, but finds that the world is too complicated to punch things back into place and starts causing a further escalation.

    At the end is forced to make drastic changes to his methodology and worldview to be more effective.
    Batman never built a prison and started rounding up all the funny-looking kids who didn't show respect with a little fascist coffee klatch in DKR. And, neither Superman nor Batman end KC as something far bigger than one man. Which is not to say the ending of KC is bad (it's the best bit of the comic, really, where they end up). I just find Superman's arc there, well, unheroic and terrifyingly depressing. Yes, you, you and you out there, your daddy's Superman does not approve of your funny piercings and and revelries. Not like the very serious battles of his day, when they knew just when to throw another man through a skyscraper. You behave. Now, you go to prison, no trial, no due process, no rights, because Superman and Team Old Fart says so.

    The Kingdom, to me, goes a long way to "repairing" KC for me, but also, I think it's a far, far better Superman story. Even all the dead Supermans (what is the accepted plural for the name, Superman?), working together, is more Superman, to me, more Superman I like, than the KC bully.
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  3. #33
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    I'm the last person to defend Miller and his depiction of Superman but Superman fans do have an irrational hatred of Miller,criticizing Millers work on Superman however strongly and logically is one thing, but the idea he single handedly is responsible for Superman's loss as a commercial icon is absolutely asinine. It's not Millers fault Superman never got a movie in the 90's nor is it Millers fault that all movies since Superman 2 have been poorly recieved,it's not Millers fault that Superman animated movies sold poorly.

    The Superman is boring tradition started because guess what Superman stories ARE boring, take Truth for instance,it's an absolute snooze fest. Really how many stories from the 90's can people even recall? who are the recent good additions to his rogues and supporting characters?

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by t hedge coke View Post
    Batman never built a prison and started rounding up all the funny-looking kids who didn't show respect with a little fascist coffee klatch in DKR. And, neither Superman nor Batman end KC as something far bigger than one man. Which is not to say the ending of KC is bad (it's the best bit of the comic, really, where they end up). I just find Superman's arc there, well, unheroic and terrifyingly depressing. Yes, you, you and you out there, your daddy's Superman does not approve of your funny piercings and and revelries. Not like the very serious battles of his day, when they knew just when to throw another man through a skyscraper. You behave. Now, you go to prison, no trial, no due process, no rights, because Superman and Team Old Fart says so.

    The Kingdom, to me, goes a long way to "repairing" KC for me, but also, I think it's a far, far better Superman story. Even all the dead Supermans (what is the accepted plural for the name, Superman?), working together, is more Superman, to me, more Superman I like, than the KC bully.
    You seem to be ignoring the fact that the story does not approve of Superman's actions despite it coming from a good place. It's far more critical of the main protagonist's flaws than you're giving it credit for.

    And the description of why Superman was imprisoning those people- which, again, the story admits is wrong -is really, really hyperbolic.

    Personally, I found Kingdom Come to be far more self aware than some of Miller's work with Batman.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkseidpwns View Post
    I'm the last person to defend Miller and his depiction of Superman but Superman fans do have an irrational hatred of Miller,criticizing Millers work on Superman however strongly and logically is one thing, but the idea he single handedly is responsible for Superman's loss as a commercial icon is absolutely asinine. It's not Millers fault Superman never got a movie in the 90's nor is it Millers fault that all movies since Superman 2 have been poorly recieved,it's not Millers fault that Superman animated movies sold poorly.

    The Superman is boring tradition started because guess what Superman stories ARE boring, take Truth for instance,it's an absolute snooze fest. Really how many stories from the 90's can people even recall? who are the recent good additions to his rogues and supporting characters?

    You might find Truth boring. Doesn't mean others do.

  6. #36
    Ultimate Member t hedge coke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    You seem to be ignoring the fact that the story does not approve of Superman's actions despite it coming from a good place. It's far more critical of the main protagonist's flaws than you're giving it credit for.
    I'm not saying it's not critical of that, just that this is what it's portraying. If Waid didn't disapprove of Superman's path, he wouldn't have ended it with Supes getting out of that game, or done a sequel where he's so humiliated over his actions he can't bring himself to admit them aloud.

    I'm not anti-KC. I don't think it's a great work, by any stretch, but I don't want it rounded up and burned or anything. But, I don't think it's a good showing for Superman, at all. I like Batman, there, more than Supes, not because I agree with him, but because even in his supposed hermit stage, he's got friends, he's got Canary and Beetle and people who'll visit him and work with him. Superman's off in a castle playing farmer to pretend he's humble and helpful. That, to me, is a story full of potential, little of which we see explored in the comic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    And the description of why Superman was imprisoning those people- which, again, the story admits is wrong -is really, really hyperbolic.
    I don't think it is. We don't see the reason for many of them, those we do, it's because of careless public brawling, mostly, but the designs of those imprisoned vs the designs of those out does play a role in how an audience reads a comic. What we see and don't see has an effect on how a comic can be read. Those are choices, if not conscious, still choices.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Personally, I found Kingdom Come to be far more self aware than some of Miller's work with Batman.
    I think it's fairly self-aware. I think it's also dodgy and misguided even then. The biggest threat isn't Cable, it's artists whose deep, meaningful contributions are riffs on ELO albums and the title of an anime spraypainted across a wall adding... what? I'm good with KC, I'll reread it again someday, but it was self-congratulatory to the end. Waid and Ross went on to do better work, not that both haven't had a stumble here or there (to my mind), and they did better work before KC. I'm glad it was a limelight moment for them both, though.

    As much as I like The Kingdom, I wonder if I'd really enjoy Ross' later followup to KC, as well. I probably would.
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  7. #37
    Ultimate Member t hedge coke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkseidpwns View Post
    The Superman is boring tradition started because guess what Superman stories ARE boring
    You came into a Superman forum to say this? What even brought you in?

    Anyhow, I think there is something to this, but it's not that they're boring (which will never be anything but subjective), it's that what are considered great Superman uses aren't universal at all. All-Star can be, easily, criticized for its fairytale-like atmosphere and reliance on twists to solve problems, but that's Elliot S! Maggin, too. That is a classic Superman. It's the first Superman movie, really, too, which begins with its own version of "once upon a time."

    Man of Steel, a movie I did not like, is criticized loudly both for Superman holding back too much, and for Superman not holding back enough in the last third. I don't think it's the same people complaining both ways, in most cases.

    Superman stories can be good, can be great, but they're rarely going to appeal to everyone all at once.

    Quote Originally Posted by darkseidpwns View Post
    Really how many stories from the 90's can people even recall?
    Quite a few, but then, I genuinely love a lot of the Death and Rebirth stories, and I think the zero issue four-parter, Peer Pressure, is one of the best Superman stories anywhere. Simonson and Bogdanove put an incredible amount of thought and sincerity into their Superman comics. They're very strong, for me. The Kingdom was a beautiful Superman story. DC 1 Million turned out to be an amazing, centuries' long Superman story and we didn't even know it reading along.


    Quote Originally Posted by darkseidpwns View Post
    who are the recent good additions to his rogues and supporting characters?
    Vyndktvx was amazing.

    But, what was the last good addition to Robin Hood's cast? Or, Sherock Holmes'? James Bond's? Mostly, you use what's there, or what's been around, because it seems to work.
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dispenser Of Truth View Post
    I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. At the end of the day, Miller is not a guy who hates Superman: he's talked about his love for the character, he had planned on revamping him alongside Steve Gerber post-Crisis before the job was given to Byrne
    This is true. Frank Miller's interview in The Comics Journal #101 (1985):

    1003063035-i00063d.jpg

    Marv Wolfman explained in Amazing Heroes #95 (1986), "Frank Miller and Steve Gerber suggested one concept, and I suggested another one that was not too dissimilar in intent although it was dissimilar in plot. Frank, Steve, and I all wanted to get rid of Superboy, cut down on Superman's powers, make changes in Luthor, and make Superman the last survivor of Krypton."

    Steve Gerber was interviewed in The Krypton Companion (2006) and explained:

    Question: "I feel curiosity for the renewal of Superman that you offered to DC in 1985 with Frank Miller. What were your plans?"

    Steve Gerber: "Take me hours. Conceptually, what we wanted was to recreate the character with a contemporary sensibility while adhering as much as possible to the spirit of the original Siegel and Shuster. It is vague, I know, but it had to do with the Superman place between humanity and his role as a force for social justice, a subject which, judging the first year of the character, was very important for Jerry Siegel."
    Last edited by Steven Ely; 10-11-2015 at 12:52 PM.
    Jerry Siegel/Joe Shuster, Bill Finger/Bob Kane/Gardner Fox/Sheldon Moldoff/Jerry Robinson, William Moulton Marston under the pen name Charles Moulton/Harry Peter. Creators of the most enduring iconic archetypes of the comic book superhero genre. The creators early Golden Age versions should be preserved. The early Golden Age mythology by the creators are as close to the proper, correct authentic versions as there is.

  9. #39
    Stevenson E Leey Steven Ely's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by t hedge coke View Post
    It's the first Superman movie, really, too, which begins with its own version of "once upon a time."
    Great post as usual, I'll add a fun fact, the first Superman movie wasn't Reeve's but Reeves'.

    $T2eC16JHJGkE9no8gJcpBRS2vKmn(w~~60_57.jpg

    Jerry Siegel/Joe Shuster, Bill Finger/Bob Kane/Gardner Fox/Sheldon Moldoff/Jerry Robinson, William Moulton Marston under the pen name Charles Moulton/Harry Peter. Creators of the most enduring iconic archetypes of the comic book superhero genre. The creators early Golden Age versions should be preserved. The early Golden Age mythology by the creators are as close to the proper, correct authentic versions as there is.

  10. #40
    Mighty Member Johnny Thunders!'s Avatar
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    I see the Dark Knight in 3 acts, first act it's Batman vs. the Mutant Leader, the second Act Batman vs. The Joker, and the third act is Batman vs. Superman. In my book Superman has better company than those two. Also, look at the way GL, the Flash, the Atom, Green Arrow, and Captain Marvel are treated in the Dark Knight universe. They are unambiguously heroic. Superman on the other hand is more of a joke like the Elongated Man or Robin. I have higher standards for the Greatest Superman Story of All Time. Superman handles his own rogues and rescues the JLA in that book, and he doesn't serve as part of the hero's obstacles.
    Last edited by Johnny Thunders!; 10-12-2015 at 05:30 AM.

  11. #41
    Ultimate Member t hedge coke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Ely View Post
    Great post as usual, I'll add a fun fact, the first Superman movie wasn't Reeve's but Reeves'.
    Point. I hadn't thought of that at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Thunders! View Post
    I see the Dark Knight in 3 acts, first act it's Batman vs. the Mutant Leader, the second Act Batman vs. The Joker, and the third act is Batman vs. Superman. In my book Superman has better company than those two. Also, look at the way GL, the Flash, the Atom, Green Arrow, and Captain Marvel are treated in the Dark Knight universe. They are unambiguously heroic. Superman on the other hand is more of a joke like the Elongated Man or Robin. I have higher standards for the Greatest Superman Story of All Time. Superman handles his own rogues and rescues the JLA in that book, and he doesn't serve as part of the hero's obstacles.
    I think the first issue has enough of an arc unto itself to be considered a full act. Act 1 isn't just building to the mutants, it's facing against the removal of duality, against the lie, too, of duality. Facing against Bruce or Batman, Two-Face or Harvey, and coming out a whole, renewed man. "The Batman is two men, and both are Bruce Wayne," to quote another comic.

    That leaves the Third Act as the one where everything shifts sideways, too, which is traditional for an operatic four-act structure. The cops are the enemy for sure, now, government/legal support is completely gone and we enter nuclear nightmare unbounded anarchy/everyone's an enemy. Which, Batman solves in the Fourth Act.

    (I'm spitballing. On a reread, you may be totally right.)
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  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by t hedge coke View Post
    The Kingdom, to me, goes a long way to "repairing" KC for me, but also, I think it's a far, far better Superman story. Even all the dead Supermans (what is the accepted plural for the name, Superman?), working together, is more Superman, to me, more Superman I like, than the KC bully.
    But was the Kal from TK supposed to be the one from KC?

  13. #43
    Ultimate Member t hedge coke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManSinha View Post
    But was the Kal from TK supposed to be the one from KC?
    He has the same design, he's friends with a Bruce with the same design, married to a Diana with the same design who is pregnant just as we saw her at the end of KC, living in a world with the same fictional restaurants, the same fictional Kansas disaster, and in a world with characters and designs created specifically for KC. He's not necessarily the Kal El from KC, but he is a Kal El from KC. It is a sequel (and prequel, and sidestory).
    Patsy Walker on TV! Patsy Walker in new comics! Patsy Walker in your brain! And Jessica Jones is the new Nancy! (Oh, and read the Comics Cube.)

  14. #44
    Mighty Member Johnny Thunders!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by t hedge coke View Post
    Point. I hadn't thought of that at all.



    I think the first issue has enough of an arc unto itself to be considered a full act. Act 1 isn't just building to the mutants, it's facing against the removal of duality, against the lie, too, of duality. Facing against Bruce or Batman, Two-Face or Harvey, and coming out a whole, renewed man. "The Batman is two men, and both are Bruce Wayne," to quote another comic.

    That leaves the Third Act as the one where everything shifts sideways, too, which is traditional for an operatic four-act structure. The cops are the enemy for sure, now, government/legal support is completely gone and we enter nuclear nightmare unbounded anarchy/everyone's an enemy. Which, Batman solves in the Fourth Act.

    (I'm spitballing. On a reread, you may be totally right.)
    I am a Frank Miller FAN, the Daredevil comics he wrote were absolutely different than anything on the spinner racks. I couldn't believe Marvel was doing that and the X Men. I love the Dark Knight Universe, Millers Batman, Year One on up to Strikes Again.

    But in the Greatest Superman Comic ever? Superman, Two Face, The Joker, and The Mutant Leader are slapped around by Batman. I mean greatest World Finest issue, I could at least live with that (well, no, not really.)

    Different Strokes!

  15. #45
    Astonishing Member superduperman's Avatar
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    I got a lot of flak a few years ago for suggesting on another Superman message board that DKR actually got Superman's personality right. Now, does that mean that it necessarily portrays him in a positive light? No, but I could totally see Superman making the greatest sacrifice of basically becoming a slave of the government to protect the rest of the super-hero community. Now, also keep in mind that I disregard the sequel and prequel books and see DKR as a stand alone story. I also haven't read them all the way through nor do I have any interest in doing so. Miller went off the rails years ago. But back when he was halfway sane, he at least seemed to understand Superman and his personality. What little of DKSA I have read with his daughter shows he still understood Superman. Never put yourself above humanity. Never conquer them. They must come to their senses on their own. Again, understanding Superman is not the same thing as portraying him in a positive light. So, no, DKR is not a "great" Superman story or even a good one. Every hero has their flaws. Being too conforming to authority is Superman's. Being too obsessed with his mission to the point of dismissing people in his life is Batman's.

    And yes, the scene where he loses his powers and has to refuel with life on the island gets him exactly right also.

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