Style > Substance: YOUNG AVENGERS Appreciation

[Fokken]

Xavin was/is a much more complex character, addressing real world gender identity exploration through a science fiction and fantasy lense. I found BKV's inclusion, and Whedon's subsequent follow up to be both courageous, controversial, and compelling stepping stones to bring awareness to such complexities and prejudices both in and out of inclusive community mind frames.

It's a shame Xavin is not being further explored, especially among a team like the Young Avengers, being such a positive example for diversity in all forms -- gender, sexuality, race, creed,etc.

I really hope that Marvel proceeds with another YA installment soon, despite what I can only assume were up impressive sales reports for the Original Sins offshoot.

[NexusTenebrare]

Xian can read minds now? Ugh... Marvel has a bad habit to give psychics the same set of abilities.
In a few year, she'll be a telekinesist too.

Eh.
Marvel has been terrible with its telepathic characters lately in general.
Any telepath can nowadays do Psylocke's trademark psionic knife trick. In some cases even trumping that by creating psionic firearms.
Pretty much any telepath also seems to have telekinesis as if the two powersets are one and the same. There used to be much more of a distinction between the two.

[Tiamatty]

Eh.
Marvel has been terrible with its telepathic characters lately in general.
Any telepath can nowadays do Psylocke's trademark psionic knife trick. In some cases even trumping that by creating psionic firearms.
Pretty much any telepath also seems to have telekinesis as if the two powersets are one and the same. There used to be much more of a distinction between the two.

Well, Quire's an Omega-level telepath, so it does make sense for him to be able to duplicate Psylocke's psychic weapons, with his own spin on it. Psylocke herself has been doing some variations on her trick for a little while, too. I can't think of any other telepaths who've been doing similar psychic weapons.

I read a really interesting set of articles once that suggested all the various psychic powers - possession, telepathy, telekinesis, a few others - are all basically connected, it's just a matter of learning the path from one aspect to another. So any telepath can learn telekinesis, if they put in the effort. There is a little bit of on-panel evidence. There was a comic where Emma completely lost control of her powers, and in her psychic thrashings, exhibited some telekinesis. I think there were some other examples, too. And yeah, it's easy to chalk that up to just mistakes being made. But even so, it's a possibility that could be explored.

I still say Xi'an learning how to read the minds of the people she possesses makes sense, though. That's a completely logical extension of her power.

[PretenderNX01]

but it was more about her sexuality than his and the only gender issue comes from what he was doing for her, rather than what he wanted for himself.

Maybe what Xavin was doing for Karolina opened up some feelings Xavin hadn't really addressed before- the way David/Prodigy's powers allowed him to explore parts of his sexuality he hadn't thought deeply about before.

[Blacksun]

What I'd like about this storyline--and what I also think'd make it tricky for both characters in-universe-- is the level of shit both girls have been through is MASSIVELY different. Miss America's lost her home, her mothers, and is a hardened warrior. Kamala's this bubbly optimist who's dealt with being an outcast and an other in American society but never actually had to cope with tragedy. According to Gillen, America's only a year older but the mental states they're both at are so far apart. So if there WAS an attraction...could any kind of relationship ever come of it?

We do need some LGBT+ women of color in comics. It's like each one of those "minority qualifiers" (not being straight, not being a man, and not being white) is a hoop they've got to jump through, and each hoop makes it less likely they'll make it into the public's eye. (Which is dumb, b/c obviously LGBT+ women of color EXIST.)

I think it is interesting, having characters that went through different situations. Sharing different experiences is a very good thing.

[legion_quest]

Maybe what Xavin was doing for Karolina opened up some feelings Xavin hadn't really addressed before- the way David/Prodigy's powers allowed him to explore parts of his sexuality he hadn't thought deeply about before.

Maybe, but that wasn't how I saw/read the story we got and seen as we have yet to go back and see a continuation, then I stick by my statement that he was a transgender character by proxy and was still just a straight male being forced to do something to get laid and later for love.

[Fokken]

I apologize for derailing the Young Avengers thread any further but.... I think some readers are applying inapplicable real-world social norms to an alien species we can't/don't fully understand, culturally-speaking --- even though it is completely fictional.

Xavin came to Earth seeking to retrieve Karolina, per the politically-driven, arranged marriage made by their respective parents. Xavin's motivation was not one of love, but one of duty. Xavin's altering of his/her physiology -- as explained, is easily equated to changing hair color --by Earth's standards, implying that gender is a much more superficial identifier, rather than what we as human beings believe to be a hugely important part of our identity and what makes us unique or important or just plain "us". Xavin doesn't see any difference to changing form any more or less than we would see a difference in a biracial couple, or a gay couple etc. 10, 20, 30 years ago that sort of thing would cause all sorts of controversy, but we're now in a world that for many its common place. Or in some cultures, wearing certain clothing -- or not wearing clothing for that matter-- is just part of the culture. Shapeshifting is common place/cultural aspect among the Skrulls.

Taking that quantifier into consideration one can then logically conclude that if gender is inconsequential, so too must sexual orientation, thereby concluding that Skrull romance/partnership/attraction is entirely based on non-physical attributes. To coin a human phrase many of us have been told by our parents growing up (I hope?) "Its what's inside that counts".

We know based on future appearances, beyond the initial departure from Earth, that Xavin grew to love Karolina, and she grew to love Xavin in kind.

Specifically addressing the back and fourth of Xavin's physical form from male to female -- often times its been stated to have purpose. Xavin would assume male form, for example, during many circumstances to appropriate responses in those around him. Xavin acknowledged that humans often apply characteristics to gender and would apply that logic in consideration to what form he/she would take: Male, to intimidate or look imposing (when in battle or addressing the King Pin for example) or if(specific to their time jump to the past when they met Klara) societal expectation demanded it (he/she took on that of a caucasian male) knowing it would prove beneficial to the group's avoidance of ignorant hostility in that time.

It could certainly be argued that the cultural immersion, not only among humans -- or rather those who more commonly identify as human (like Karolina) -- but also among human teenagers could have dramatically impacted his/her perception of identity, what it means, and just how relevant it proves to one's existence. Citing the exchange in volume 3(?) when Xavin took on the visage of Nico to appeal to Karolina,(after being explained to by Molly that his/her shifting makes people uncomfortable) --she still doesn't fully grasp the importance humans place on superficial identity.

My understanding is that Molly argues the his/her shifting makes people uncomfortable -- and Xavin interprets that as "my foundation forms upset people", and then adopts Nico's in an attempt to make Karolina more comfortable. Xavin's logic: I make Karolina uncomfortable. Nico doesn't make Karolina uncomfortable. I will set Karolina at ease by adopting the form of someone she is comfortable with. Its very pragmatic, but we as humans understand that this could be poorly received. In my mind, it would be like if I saw my husband found Chris Evans attractive, so in response I dye my hair blonde and try to bulk up. Simply because my husband finds Chris Evans attractive, doesn't mean he finds those characteristics suitable for ME -- as Karolina eventually points out.

Karolina believes this to be a deception -- a trick or test of some kind. Xavin however, felt Karolina would "recognize" him/her despite the form he/she has taken (thereby reinforcing my the belief that Skrulls hold little consideration toward superficial, and value alternative personal quantifiers). When Karolina explains "I just want you to be yourself" the misguided Xavin (having believed his/her foundation forms upset everyone) admits "but I have no idea who I am".

Xavin is clearly struggling with his/her identity and the accompanying expectations among human society that is so strongly identity-driven.

Additionally, within Joss Whedon's time travel arc, we learn that Xavin's emotions are heavily tied to the form he/she defaults to -- after engaging in a heated argument with Karolina and losing concentration to maintain the caucasian male form -- yet again, reinforcing that identity for Skrulls (be it gender, sexual orientation, etc. as WE understand them) are less connected/bound by physical parameters.

That's what makes Xavin such a fascinating character -- the complexity of his/her Skrull culture being viewed through a human lens.

[legion_quest]

This is why I love discussing comics, because we both read the same thing but saw/took something totally different from the same text/images.

[Fokken]

This is why I love discussing comics, because we both read the same thing but saw/took something totally different from the same text/images.

Right??? Its Fascinating!

Also, has anyone seen these character studies of MAC, Wiccan and Kate, by most recent YA artist Ramon Villalobos




Would people be in favor of this artist for the next ongoing? Either as rotating or full time artist?

[Tiamatty]

Also, has anyone seen these character studies of MAC, Wiccan and Kate, by most recent YA artist Ramon Villalobos

Would people be in favor of this artist for the next ongoing? Either as rotating or full time artist?

No. Please, please, no. His style is so damned unappealing.

[nj06]

No. Please, please, no. His style is so damned unappealing.

I agree. I'm not a fan of this art style and I don't want it for a Young Avengers series.

[Fokken]

I've got to agree. After having been so utterly spoiled in the illustrative department for the various YA installments -- I just need something a bit cleaner, a bit more....youthful energy -- I really like clean lines with an animated quality to the figures and faces.

[legion_quest]

I've got to agree. After having been so utterly spoiled in the illustrative department for the various YA installments -- I just need something a bit cleaner, a bit more....youthful energy -- I really like clean lines with an animated quality to the figures and faces.

Agreed. YA needs that 'clean' art style rather than this more stylised style

[Fokken]

I'd be down with an Annie Wu drawn Young Avengers, for example. Its got some stylistic stuff going on there but much cleaner and she rocks drawing Kate

[Tiamatty]

It would depend on the tone of the book. I will pretty much always say Emma Rios is my first choice, no matter what the book, but she actually would be great for a more intimate story. Stuart Immonen and Olivier Coipel are also always going to be among my top choices. But they're pretty huge artists, so they might be too expensive for Young Avengers. So it might be better to figure out someone less popular. Maybe find a cool indie artist. Jen Van Meter's done plenty of work with Christine Norrie, for the three volumes of Hopeless Savages, so they could be given a run. Make the run another love story, since Hopeless Savages Vol. 2 was such a brilliant story of teen love. Even better if she can get Bryan Lee O'Malley to do an issue. Jonathan Luna's work on Ultra: Seven Days was pretty good, too, so he might be another option.

The names escape me, but there were a few incredible artists on The Legend of Bold Riley. Maybe Leia Weathington could write YA, and bring in one or two of those artists with her. I can see her writing an amazing Kate Bishop.

For artists currently working at Marvel: Felipe Smith might be an interesting choice. I was pretty happy with Joanna Estep's work on the Fantastic Four 100th Anniversary Special. Pepe Larraz is always good. Marcus To's nothing special, but he's reliably adequate.

And of course, Annie Wu would be a fine choice.