Earth 2: Society #5 Preview

[ThomasBlake]

DC isn't obliged to make this new earth 2 Dick like past Dick Graysons. Just looking at Terry Sloan and Wes Dodds shows that isn't a hard and fast rule. However, it is fair to expect this Dick Grayson to be similar to the character shown in the previous Earth 2 and Convergence series. This Dick has gone from a caring, worrisome father to a one dimensional badass.

They're not obligated, but they do increase their chances of winning Dick Grayson fans over if he's actually written more closely to the character we know if slightly different. As we speak, the character fronting this comic is completely unlikeable and bears no semblance to even his original Earth-2 counterpart. Also, without his history with Bruce Wayne intact, him becoming Batman lacks significance and is nothing short of forcing him to take on a role he has no reason to take. From a money standpoint, if Dick Grayson is appearing in three other books (Grayson, Titans Run, Batman and Robin Eternal) where he is actually written in character and his history with Bruce is intact, why should his fans bother with this comic?

[kivatt]

19? Jay's not 19, in Earth 2 #1 he said he was 21.



Also I sure love how he's whiny, stupid and incompetent all of a sudden so he can be told what to do and how to act by Val and Dick (who both have LESS experience doing superhero stuff than he does, by the way). This nothing like how he acted before World's End and he didn't have enough page time in World's End to show or explain his new personality. I hate how Wilson writes these characters like they are only inherently driven to do good if they've got an S or a Bat on their chests (or are a robot).

He's 22 pushing 23.

[Zero Hunter]

Whats the odds of this series lasting pass issue 12? It is funny all those people who kept screaming it was not Wilson's fault how bad Worlds End sucked now are looking pretty foolish because this book is just as bad as Worlds End was and maybe even more so.

[lorddominicus85]

They're not obligated, but they do increase their chances of winning Dick Grayson fans over if he's actually written more closely to the character we know if slightly different. As we speak, the character fronting this comic is completely unlikeable and bears no semblance to even his original Earth-2 counterpart. Also, without his history with Bruce Wayne intact, him becoming Batman lacks significance and is nothing short of forcing him to take on a role he has no reason to take. From a money standpoint, if Dick Grayson is appearing in three other books (Grayson, Titans Run, Batman and Robin Eternal) where he is actually written in character and his history with Bruce is intact, why should his fans bother with this comic?

I actually like this version of Dick Grayson quite a bit, between him and Val Zod in Convergence are the reasons I'm even picking this book up. And the way the book is being plotted is each issue centers on one character and fills in parts of his back story from one year ago, just like the first season of Lost. So last we saw Dick he was kind and compassionate and not all too sure about where he fits in among these superheroes, one year later he's a crime fighting bad ass searching for his son on this new world. The hook is we don't know how he got from A to B and need to keep reading to find out. I'm sorry you don't like it but please don't make broad assumptions about everyone's tastes in comics. I'm enjoying this book very much, I didn't read the first Earth 2 or World's End nor did I read about the original JSA, this book and Convergence did exactly what they were supposed to do as far as I'm concerned, hooked a reader who wasn't reading this book before and gave me at least two characters I'm interested in following in Dick and Val, I'm also incredibly interested to see what happened to Alan Scott.

On a side note, can we ever have a discussion about this book that doesn't turn into somebody crying about the old JSA? I mean seriously, it's been four years, they aren't coming back. Start your own thread and cry about it and leave the Earth 2 preview threads for the people who either like the book or want to complain about something that actually matters to the book. Whining about a version of Dick Grayson that doesn't even appear in this book and hasn't appeared in print in several years adds nothing to the discussion of Earth 2 Society. I'm sorry your favorite characters are gone but it's time to let go.

[DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy]

DC should have Rebooted this world after Convergence so you have a fresh jumping on point.

[vartox]

On a side note, can we ever have a discussion about this book that doesn't turn into somebody crying about the old JSA? I mean seriously, it's been four years, they aren't coming back. Start your own thread and cry about it and leave the Earth 2 preview threads for the people who either like the book or want to complain about something that actually matters to the book. Whining about a version of Dick Grayson that doesn't even appear in this book and hasn't appeared in print in several years adds nothing to the discussion of Earth 2 Society. I'm sorry your favorite characters are gone but it's time to let go.

Am I still allowed to be upset about how the Earth 2 versions are being treated, at least? They're all side characters in a book that was supposed to revamp them and almost all of them suffer from bad, lazy characterization. I think Hawkgirl is the only JSA related character that hasn't been mangled beyond recognition from early Earth 2 and she hasn't done anything of note in dozens of issues.

[Tayswift]

I actually like this version of Dick Grayson quite a bit, between him and Val Zod in Convergence are the reasons I'm even picking this book up. And the way the book is being plotted is each issue centers on one character and fills in parts of his back story from one year ago, just like the first season of Lost. So last we saw Dick he was kind and compassionate and not all too sure about where he fits in among these superheroes, one year later he's a crime fighting bad ass searching for his son on this new world. The hook is we don't know how he got from A to B and need to keep reading to find out. I'm sorry you don't like it but please don't make broad assumptions about everyone's tastes in comics. I'm enjoying this book very much, I didn't read the first Earth 2 or World's End nor did I read about the original JSA, this book and Convergence did exactly what they were supposed to do as far as I'm concerned, hooked a reader who wasn't reading this book before and gave me at least two characters I'm interested in following in Dick and Val, I'm also incredibly interested to see what happened to Alan Scott.

On a side note, can we ever have a discussion about this book that doesn't turn into somebody crying about the old JSA? I mean seriously, it's been four years, they aren't coming back. Start your own thread and cry about it and leave the Earth 2 preview threads for the people who either like the book or want to complain about something that actually matters to the book. Whining about a version of Dick Grayson that doesn't even appear in this book and hasn't appeared in print in several years adds nothing to the discussion of Earth 2 Society. I'm sorry your favorite characters are gone but it's time to let go.

maybe because this book is suppossed to be a new JSA, but it just keep destroying the JSA characters. Fans are totally on their right, bad for DC that lose sales

[leo619]

I actually like this version of Dick Grayson quite a bit, between him and Val Zod in Convergence are the reasons I'm even picking this book up. And the way the book is being plotted is each issue centers on one character and fills in parts of his back story from one year ago, just like the first season of Lost. So last we saw Dick he was kind and compassionate and not all too sure about where he fits in among these superheroes, one year later he's a crime fighting bad ass searching for his son on this new world. The hook is we don't know how he got from A to B and need to keep reading to find out. I'm sorry you don't like it but please don't make broad assumptions about everyone's tastes in comics. I'm enjoying this book very much, I didn't read the first Earth 2 or World's End nor did I read about the original JSA, this book and Convergence did exactly what they were supposed to do as far as I'm concerned, hooked a reader who wasn't reading this book before and gave me at least two characters I'm interested in following in Dick and Val, I'm also incredibly interested to see what happened to Alan Scott.

On a side note, can we ever have a discussion about this book that doesn't turn into somebody crying about the old JSA? I mean seriously, it's been four years, they aren't coming back. Start your own thread and cry about it and leave the Earth 2 preview threads for the people who either like the book or want to complain about something that actually matters to the book. Whining about a version of Dick Grayson that doesn't even appear in this book and hasn't appeared in print in several years adds nothing to the discussion of Earth 2 Society. I'm sorry your favorite characters are gone but it's time to let go.

I agree with the second part. Every Earth 2 preview does not need to degenerate into another we want the old JSA thread back. Enough is enough regarding that aspect.

Now if the criticism is about what's currently going on regarding this book, be it bad writing, bad characterization, etc. That's fine. But if you major issue is the fact this isn't the old JSA, that complaint have been issued since the series first started, we don't need to hear that every single thread.

[ThomasBlake]

I actually like this version of Dick Grayson quite a bit, between him and Val Zod in Convergence are the reasons I'm even picking this book up. And the way the book is being plotted is each issue centers on one character and fills in parts of his back story from one year ago, just like the first season of Lost. So last we saw Dick he was kind and compassionate and not all too sure about where he fits in among these superheroes, one year later he's a crime fighting bad ass searching for his son on this new world. The hook is we don't know how he got from A to B and need to keep reading to find out. I'm sorry you don't like it but please don't make broad assumptions about everyone's tastes in comics. I'm enjoying this book very much, I didn't read the first Earth 2 or World's End nor did I read about the original JSA, this book and Convergence did exactly what they were supposed to do as far as I'm concerned, hooked a reader who wasn't reading this book before and gave me at least two characters I'm interested in following in Dick and Val, I'm also incredibly interested to see what happened to Alan Scott.

On a side note, can we ever have a discussion about this book that doesn't turn into somebody crying about the old JSA? I mean seriously, it's been four years, they aren't coming back. Start your own thread and cry about it and leave the Earth 2 preview threads for the people who either like the book or want to complain about something that actually matters to the book. Whining about a version of Dick Grayson that doesn't even appear in this book and hasn't appeared in print in several years adds nothing to the discussion of Earth 2 Society. I'm sorry your favorite characters are gone but it's time to let go.

The problem with your argument is that this new Earth-2 was intended from the start of the New 52 to be a modernized reboot of the pre-Crisis original--complete with a modern Justice Society team--before it got derailed into the complete schlock both Cotton and Wilson turned it into. The fact that this comic is selling at far lower numbers than James Robinson's run on the original series (and we're only on issue #5) says I am far from alone in my opinions. Readers having different tastes isn't so much the point as the fact that the only book featuring modern versions of the Justice Society characters is being developed in ways that is actively excluding a significant portion of the audience. It's one thing to make the stories and characters more accessible to newer readers as part of a strategy to grow the readership from the existing one. It's something else entirely to actively exclude existing fans from your target audience in pursuit of a different audience. It's a bad business model and one that always guarantees a significant loss in sales. Happens every time!

On your second point, I think everything from discussing the bad writing, the bad editing, the decision to marginalize the Justice Society characters in favor of Batman and Superman, to DC's decision to actively ruin a franchise many people were invested in (all of which are reflected with this series) is fair game. I'm sorry the discussions don't go the way you want, but it's not like DC offered Earth-2 and Justice Society fans any alternatives to this series. If we were at least getting a more recognizable Earth-2 populated by more recognizable versions of the characters we love in a different comic, it would be easier to ignore and dismiss this series as nothing more than a bad elseworlds comic. Alas, that's not the reality we're living with, and Justice Society fans are not going away. We love these characters a lot and want to see them treated better by the people in charge. It's perfectly fine if you're enjoying this series, but we're also allowed to participate in a discussion about characters we're still invested in and want to actually spend money on.

[cxranger]

Just curious - whatever did happen to the husk of Earth 2? Apokolips just subsumed it like Galactus?

[Ishmael]

I actually like this version of Dick Grayson quite a bit, between him and Val Zod in Convergence are the reasons I'm even picking this book up. And the way the book is being plotted is each issue centers on one character and fills in parts of his back story from one year ago, just like the first season of Lost. So last we saw Dick he was kind and compassionate and not all too sure about where he fits in among these superheroes, one year later he's a crime fighting bad ass searching for his son on this new world. The hook is we don't know how he got from A to B and need to keep reading to find out. I'm sorry you don't like it but please don't make broad assumptions about everyone's tastes in comics. I'm enjoying this book very much, I didn't read the first Earth 2 or World's End nor did I read about the original JSA, this book and Convergence did exactly what they were supposed to do as far as I'm concerned, hooked a reader who wasn't reading this book before and gave me at least two characters I'm interested in following in Dick and Val, I'm also incredibly interested to see what happened to Alan Scott.

On a side note, can we ever have a discussion about this book that doesn't turn into somebody crying about the old JSA? I mean seriously, it's been four years, they aren't coming back. Start your own thread and cry about it and leave the Earth 2 preview threads for the people who either like the book or want to complain about something that actually matters to the book. Whining about a version of Dick Grayson that doesn't even appear in this book and hasn't appeared in print in several years adds nothing to the discussion of Earth 2 Society. I'm sorry your favorite characters are gone but it's time to let go.

I agree w/all of this. I'm enjoying the book and figure they'll fill in the details on Dick as Batman soon enough. And having loved the JSA back before COIE, I've no problem with what they're doing here. I can always re-read those old books AND enjoy this.

[leo619]

The problem with your argument is that this new Earth-2 was intended from the start of the New 52 to be a modernized reboot of the pre-Crisis original--complete with a modern Justice Society team--before it got derailed into the complete schlock both Cotton and Wilson turned it into. The fact that this comic is selling at far lower numbers than James Robinson's run on the original series (and we're only on issue #5) says I am far from alone in my opinions. Readers having different tastes isn't so much the point as the fact that the only book featuring modern versions of the Justice Society characters is being developed in ways that is actively excluding a significant portion of the audience. It's one thing to make the stories and characters more accessible to newer readers as part of a strategy to grow the readership from the existing one. It's something else entirely to actively exclude existing fans from your target audience in pursuit of a different audience. It's a bad business model and one that always guarantees a significant loss in sales. Happens every time!

On your second point, I think everything from discussing the bad writing, the bad editing, the decision to marginalize the Justice Society characters in favor of Batman and Superman, to DC's decision to actively ruin a franchise many people were invested in (all of which are reflected with this series) is fair game. I'm sorry the discussions don't go the way you want, but it's not like DC offered Earth-2 and Justice Society fans any alternatives to this series. If we were at least getting a more recognizable Earth-2 populated by more recognizable versions of the characters we love in a different comic, it would be easier to ignore and dismiss this series as nothing more than a bad elseworlds comic. Alas, that's not the reality we're living with, and Justice Society fans are not going away. We love these characters a lot and want to see them treated better by the people in charge. It's perfectly fine if you're enjoying this series, but we're also allowed to participate in a discussion about characters we're still invested in and want to actually spend money on.

But if the same comment is stated over and over again, that's not discussing the comic, that's just straight trolling. It's one thing to discuss to issues or problems that exist within the comic. That's perfectly fine. But if you are not interested in the comic because it's not old JSA, than there's no purpose for you to be in the thread because you are not contributing at all to that comic book issue being discussed. Someone's obsession with Jay Garrick pre52 has nothing to do with what's going on in issue 5 of Earth 2 Society. Instead, it's another form of trying to troll the conversation into something completely different than it's original intentions.

[Rakzo]

This is impressive actually.

It takes some sort of special talent to get a character like Jay so wrong to the point where he prefers being famous and getting drunk instead of saving people while at the same time portraying Dick as his name instead of the compassionate man that the SAME AUTHOR CREATED!

And I don't even like Earth 2 Jimmy Olsen but I'm not sure if I'm okay with him being portrayed as an egomaniacal villain (then again, considering what happened to Terry Sloan this is not a surprise).

Jimenez' artwork is becoming better and better but the storytelling is still problematic at times.

[FlashingSabre]

This is impressive actually.

It takes some sort of special talent to get a character like Jay so wrong to the point where he prefers being famous and getting drunk instead of saving people while at the same time portraying Dick as his name instead of the compassionate man that the SAME AUTHOR CREATED!

And I don't even like Earth 2 Jimmy Olsen but I'm not sure if I'm okay with him being portrayed as an egomaniacal villain (then again, considering what happened to Terry Sloan this is not a surprise).

Jimenez' artwork is becoming better and better but the storytelling is still problematic at times.

Wait, Jimmy's a villain? How the hell did that happen?! He's the biggest boyscout this side of Val-Zod. That doesn't even make sense!

[lorddominicus85]

The problem with your argument is that this new Earth-2 was intended from the start of the New 52 to be a modernized reboot of the pre-Crisis original--complete with a modern Justice Society team--before it got derailed into the complete schlock both Cotton and Wilson turned it into. The fact that this comic is selling at far lower numbers than James Robinson's run on the original series (and we're only on issue #5) says I am far from alone in my opinions. Readers having different tastes isn't so much the point as the fact that the only book featuring modern versions of the Justice Society characters is being developed in ways that is actively excluding a significant portion of the audience. It's one thing to make the stories and characters more accessible to newer readers as part of a strategy to grow the readership from the existing one. It's something else entirely to actively exclude existing fans from your target audience in pursuit of a different audience. It's a bad business model and one that always guarantees a significant loss in sales. Happens every time!

On your second point, I think everything from discussing the bad writing, the bad editing, the decision to marginalize the Justice Society characters in favor of Batman and Superman, to DC's decision to actively ruin a franchise many people were invested in (all of which are reflected with this series) is fair game. I'm sorry the discussions don't go the way you want, but it's not like DC offered Earth-2 and Justice Society fans any alternatives to this series. If we were at least getting a more recognizable Earth-2 populated by more recognizable versions of the characters we love in a different comic, it would be easier to ignore and dismiss this series as nothing more than a bad elseworlds comic. Alas, that's not the reality we're living with, and Justice Society fans are not going away. We love these characters a lot and want to see them treated better by the people in charge. It's perfectly fine if you're enjoying this series, but we're also allowed to participate in a discussion about characters we're still invested in and want to actually spend money on.

The entirety of the New 52 is supposed to be a modernized take on the DC universe. Prime Earth Superman isn't the same character as Pre Flashpoint Superman, neither is Barry Allen, Wonder Woman and so on and so forth. The point is people either read the stories that are printed because they enjoy them or they don't read them. But for whatever reason a hand full of Justice Society fans take it as a personal slight against them that their favorites haven't returned. Well neither has the "real" Wally West or the "real" Cassandra Cain and they're not going to and that's the point. So if you don't like Earth 2 Society either the art or story telling or over all direction that's fine, lets discuss that and what you'd like to see changed. But it seems you don't like it because they aren't "your" preferred versions of the characters and that has a very simple solution, stop reading the book. As for sales, someone posted the sales for the old Justice Society book compared to both volumes of Earth 2 in another Earth 2 preview thread and it turns out before Justice Society was canceled it was selling in the 30k range just like Earth 2 so while these characters have turned you off from the franchise, they aren't doing any better or worse than the characters they replaced.

We all lost characters we loved or continuity we enjoyed in the New 52, tirelessly beating a dead horse while getting upset with people who do in fact like the new versions isn't getting you anywhere. You want to prove a point? Prove it to DC and stop buying the book, or begrudgingly buy it because you're a "completionist" and stop complaining because you're doing it to yourself.

If you're goal is to just troll every Earth 2 thread as someone else suggested then job well done but that isn't going to stop those of us who do like the characters from defending them. I like the way the story is unfolding, I was and am a huge fan of Lost and they are producing each issue of Society like an episode of Lost, it focuses on one character and gives you some backstory on them. That narrative isn't for everyone and if I'm in the minority then eventually DC will cancel the book. Oh well. And if they do, as much as I like this version of Dick or Val or Scott, I won't harp on whatever takes it's place in the line up because coming on this forum and trying to engage everyone else who happens to like it in a pointless argument isn't going to change anything. There are plenty of characters I like at both Marvel and DC that they have either treated poorly or just forgotten about, I love Johnny Blaze, his run under the pen of Daniel Way was what got me back into marvel ten years ago, I don't care for the new Ghost Rider, however I don't troll the new GR preview threads complaining that he isn't Johnny Blaze and there for everyone should hate him with me.