Why Do Wonder Woman's Villains Suck?

[DisneyWWfan]

I think one problem as well is that the Greek Pantheon has had little effects on the greater DC Universe. As I stated above this is much the case with things involving Wonder Woman, but I find it particularly troubling with the Pantheon. The topic title of this discussion is why WW's villains suck. I think almost anyone would state the God of War, Ares, as villains go does not suck. Now the interpretations may or maynot suck, and the execution of such a character may suck, but I don't think many on paper would say, "Yeah, the God of War, lame."

Over at Marvel, when they unleashed Loki on the greater Marvel Universe, it required the formation of the Avengers to match him, and his schemes. The number of times I've seen Ares in conflict with Superman or Green Lantern is nonexistant, though I'm sure it happens, it's nowhere near as prevalent as it should be. The comic series Blackest Night dealt with characters being Black Lanterns that are brought back from the dead. Where was Hades during all of this? He is God of the Underworld. In the various Crisis storylines, they are at best in the background. I can't remember seeing any of the Greek Pantheon appear in Justice League, ever.

As I said in the above post, Wonder woman and her stories are often kept out there on an island all to itself. As such, people say her characters are lame, even though many of the villains they love Wonder Woman would make short work of. The ignorance though of writers is comical at best and horrid in worst. Cheetah is constantly undervalued, Circe is gotten wrong in her only cartoon appearance, Ares and Hades are seemingly interchangable at times even though they are completely different characters.

Many fans of Wonder Woman came from the Lynda Carter TV Show. As far as I know, the only two villains to appear in both the show and comics are Paula Von Gunther (A villlain in the golden age, who rehabilitated herself, and post crisis was seen rarely), and Fausta (who has appeared in a very few amount of issues ever). That's it. No Cheetah, Ares/Mars, Hercules, Dr Poison, Dr Psycho, Giganta, Dr Cyber, no one. The thing that made Joker, Penguin, Riddler and Catwoman household names wasn't the comic books. It was the TV show. let alone is it bad enough the TV show did not use many of the comic villains, the comics in turn never explored any of the TV villains.

I think one thing though that would have to be explored is in what ways do individuals feel the villains stink at. Is it popularity, power, schemes, ability to interact with Diana, etc that is the gage at which we explore various villains. I think for example, in terms of popularity, using a villain like Ares, and comparing him to Joker, Ares has looked massively different depending upon who was the writer and artist of the book, whereas Joker often has the green hair, the crazy smile, purple clothes, etc. If you had the choice to put Joker or Ares on a T-shirt, who would it be? It's Joker, but not because of his storylines or because of his power, but in all truth, it's because he's recognizable. Joker is one of the most popular characters in the history of comics, whereas Ares is not even remotely a household name in terms of the comic character. I think when DC ditched the Perez redesign of Ares, it was actually a major step back, as apposed to a step forward. At Marvel, Loki is recognizable, if I showed you a picture of Mars from the early WW comics, then the late Vol 1 issues, and then the Perez version, the Rucka version, and now the Azz version, they don't even look like the same character.

[Deniz Camp]

I don't think anyone's saying that.

It seems as though people are saying that; that the lack of revamping old villains is a sign of disrespect or laziness, rather than a valid authorial choice.

They just want characters they like to be treated fairly.

I don't understand what that means. The concept of fairness barely exists in the real world, much less in this non-existent fictional universe. What is 'owed' to these one off characters? Aren't people here Wonder Womans fans first, fans of blue snowman (or whoever) second?

And while you may not find her villains compelling, clearly others do even if they admit they aren't always well written.

Well, no, they don't. What they seem to be saying is "I have a great idea for how this character could be revamped into something interesting", but if you're admitting that they've never been interesting, then I think you have to open to the notion that they are not, in fact, interesting.

That doesn't mean there isn't some potential there, but if you're drastically redrafting a character, the difference between that and simply creating a new one is largely one of semantics, I think. The Black Hand of Geoff Johns, to give an example, has little to do with the original character. To the point that fans of this new version would be wholly uninterested in the original; they have nothing in common but name and look. I'm not really sure how that is 'being fair' to the character; and, in fact, a few people my protest it.

This seems to stem for our fandoms supreme resistance to change, to 'new'. Rather everything must have at least the patina of familiarity to be accepted as 'respectful'. I'm much more interested in someone crafting a Wonder Woman book that looks to the future. That doesn't mean there isn't room for pieces of the past in it, but it's not at all a requirement, or even preferred. It's an authorial choice, or it should be.

[Deniz Camp]

For me, at least, it's because none of the recent additions to Diana's rogues gallery have been very interesting. Mayfly, Genocide, the Olympian, Nemesis, and the First Born have been marginally interesting to complete duds IMO. I'd rather see a writer modernize characters like Minister Blizzard, Eviless, or Osira instead.

But why? Is there any evidence that you'd have preferred a drastic revamp of those characters to the ones already mentioned? If a writer is incapable of making one interesting to you, why would you think the inclusion of old characters would make a substantive change? Wouldn't it be better that the writer just do whatever they thought was best for the story they were telling?

If you don't trust the writer to be on the book, then I don't see how this small thing could make any difference. If you do, then you should certainly let them do as they are going to.

I'm not trying to be problematic here, this is a genuine issue with comic fandom I don't understand. The constant re-vision of characters comes as a necessity of ownership - writers don't want to create new IP for DC that they could create for themselves - not because there is anything inherently better about the practice.

Speaking for myself, I really, really dug the Azz run. I thought Hades, Strife, Cassandra, and the First Born were good villains. Strife, in particular, is perhaps my favorite new character of the decade so far (though I admit she is not an out and out villain; but, then, that's part of what makes her so interesting).

I don't doubt that if Azz had beenn required to dig up some old character instead of First Born he would have made it work about as well, especially if it were his own will. But it's a largely academic concern. He was working with specific themes, and created First Born to explore them.

[Agent Z]

When I say treated fairly, I mean writers putting the same effort into them as they do other characters.

I said they weren't always written well, not that they aren't interesting. There's a huge difference. Also, fans of all characters have story ideas they'd love to see and stories involving those characters they wish never happened.

How would you define looking to the future? Because in many cases of DC and Marvel, I've seen that stories that do this have rather blatant connections to the past even revering it. Hell, it's not like the Olympians came out of nowhere in Azz's run, they'd been featured in past WW runs as well as other works that are even older. I mean, we're talking about characters that have existed for 70 + years for extra irony.

The concept of fairness does exist in the real world. It's just not always applied unfortunately.

[Deniz Camp]

When I say treated fairly, I mean writers putting the same effort into them as they do other characters.

We're not even talking about main characters, we're talking about villains. Characters aren't 'owed' anything, but even if they were, villains certainly are not.

I said they weren't always written well, not that they aren't interesting. There's a huge difference. Also, fans of all characters have story ideas they'd love to see and stories involving those characters they wish never happened.

Which is all baggage you bring to the story, not the story itself. The responsibility of a storyteller is to tell a good story. Fan service has it's place, but that's all it is -- fan service. It's not a central component of a run, or shouldn't be. It's far more respectful to turn in your best work than to pander.

The concept of fairness does exist in the real world. It's just not always applied unfortunately.

In the real world, fairness is far more complicated than "you owe me this, I owe you that". But whatever sense of fairness does exist is based on human principles; these characters are not only not human, they aren't alive. They are owed nothing.

[Baseman]

We're not even talking about main characters, we're talking about villains. Characters aren't 'owed' anything, but even if they were, villains certainly are not.



Which is all baggage you bring to the story, not the story itself. The responsibility of a storyteller is to tell a good story. Fan service has it's place, but that's all it is -- fan service. It's not a central component of a run, or shouldn't be. It's far more respectful to turn in your best work than to pander.



In the real world, fairness is far more complicated than "you owe me this, I owe you that". But whatever sense of fairness does exist is based on human principles; these characters are not only not human, they aren't alive. They are owed nothing.

I disagree.A decent and consistent Rouge gallery is important part of a character mythos .Arguably part of the reason batman is so popular is because his Rouges are treated well across the board.You cant really say the same for WW save for a few (Ares,Circe,Cheetah sometimes).

[kivatt]

That's why we need a big event involving Wonder Woman's villains.

[Outside_85]

Diana being able to kill them doesn't really make her different from any of the other heroes. Batman could kill all of his foes with relative ease if he put his mind to it, but that doesn't make any of his rogues less popular than they are.

See, thats where you misunderstand what I mean.
You are right that Batman could also kill all of his adversaries if he wanted to, but the difference between him and Diana; is that his foes actively try and avoid and delay a physical onfrontation with him for as long as possible according to their plans, while Diana's are often in her face at first given oppertunity. Also there is the fact that Batman is only human, so are most of his foes, while some are physically greater than him. In Diana's case, it's the opposite much of the time.

It's like with Giganta, it's very impressive to have the 200ft woman stomping around down town, but what actual threat is she to someone who can move techtonic plates?

[Mel Dyer]

Personally, I would like to see an event where Wonder Woman's villains just wreck sh*t.

Circe
Cheetah
Cassandra the Mad
Giganta

Wre-ehkkked...

That's why we need a big event involving Wonder Woman's villains.

And how!

The four women presently in-continuity are no slouches. Circe brings magic and a mythological tie-in - Diana's Loki. So far, Cheetah proves an adequate physical match - an anti-Wondy. Giganta is big and crazy. Cassandra the Mad brings a technological threat and has exhibited sufficient intellect to run the show, ..adding even extra melodrama, as Diana's blood half-sister. It doesn't have to be an all-lady operation, but, the current line-up looks pretty dangerous.

[Dr. Poison]

But why? Is there any evidence that you'd have preferred a drastic revamp of those characters to the ones already mentioned? If a writer is incapable of making one interesting to you, why would you think the inclusion of old characters would make a substantive change? Wouldn't it be better that the writer just do whatever they thought was best for the story they were telling?

If you don't trust the writer to be on the book, then I don't see how this small thing could make any difference. If you do, then you should certainly let them do as they are going to.

I'm not trying to be problematic here, this is a genuine issue with comic fandom I don't understand. The constant re-vision of characters comes as a necessity of ownership - writers don't want to create new IP for DC that they could create for themselves - not because there is anything inherently better about the practice.

Speaking for myself, I really, really dug the Azz run. I thought Hades, Strife, Cassandra, and the First Born were good villains. Strife, in particular, is perhaps my favorite new character of the decade so far (though I admit she is not an out and out villain; but, then, that's part of what makes her so interesting).

I don't doubt that if Azz had beenn required to dig up some old character instead of First Born he would have made it work about as well, especially if it were his own will. But it's a largely academic concern. He was working with specific themes, and created First Born to explore them.

Again, for me, at least, these older villains have at least one or two things going for them that pique my interest whether it's their design(Osira), power-set(Giganta), or motivation(Baroness Paula Von Gunther) that intrigues me where as these newer villains have mostly brought about a "meh" in my mind. Genocde and the First Born were basically just bent on destruction - not very original in the least bit. Nemesis was just boring on all levels. Mayfly was goofy looking and her name rivals that of Crazy Quilt. I do like few of Diana's newer rogues such as Dark Angel, Cyborgirl, and the Queen of Fables.

As for the Greek pantheon, i don't hate them, I just think they're overused and the fact that they're hand me downs from public domain doesn't help either. People argue that Thor's villains are too but the difference here is that Thor is also from public domain while Wonder Woman is not.

[neonrideraryeh]

Wonder Woman villains don't suck. They're very underrated. It's all because they are woefully underused. They've unfortunately ignored them in favour of the Greek Myths. And because some recent writers have made them job. But we've occasionally seen them done well and there is a lot of potential there for a lot more cool stuff. I'd love to see a writer actually focus on building WW's rogues gallery because there is so much that can be done. Finch said she would do it but she's just jumped back onto the Greek Myth thing again. But to write these rogues off completely is a big no-no because they don't suck (well most of them don't). I still maintain that WW should be more of a superhero character and less of a myth character.

[brettc1]

I also think it is largely due to the majority of Wonder Woman's enemies being female. Female superheroes have it rough to begin with, but female supervillains, especially ones that aren't kinky femme fatales in leather bikinis? Is the fact that they're mostly women detrimental to Wonder Woman as a whole? I don't think so considering the fact that female supervillains are a scarce commodity, but maybe the common comic book-reading public believes it is. Can people just not take a female supervillain seriously? Certainly there are comic writers who can't, or they wouldn't have Cheetah defeated by being handcuffed to a lamppost.

Lets talk about this in the context of the movie JL: Crisis on Two Earths.

Firstly - Wonder Woman almost exclusively fights female opponents. She does get to fight Owlman, which is pretty cool, but then again Owlman is not the kind of guy you would expect her to have trouble with. He is basically Batman in some power armor.

So question - why out of all the fights do we see Wonder Woman squaring off against women about 90% of the time? There seems to be a unspoken rule when it comes to team battles that "chicks fight chicks".

Second, compare her battle with Superwoman to when Superman fights the female villain...




Walls are getting demolished as they throw punches and they are clearly both highly invulnerable. You can well believe that Superwoman is a heavy hitter.

Continued next post...

[brettc1]

Now lets look at Superwoman's fight with Wonder Woman towards the end of the movie...



Aesthetically impressive - sure. But you have to wonder why Superwoman is getting hurt by her face hitting the floor when earlier she was being knocked through walls. Apart from Superwoman lifting a comparatively small piece of rubble as a club there is not much here to tell you that these two have Kryptonian level strength. It could just as easily be a fight between two street level opponents.

For some reason, Wonder Woman rarely gets to go up against heavy hitters, and when she does they often seem to be watered down, as if they have to be less impressive for her to fight them.

And of course, there is also that unfortunate statement a while back by a writer that if Wonder Woman were fighting Black Adam he would just grab her by the hair and throw her into the sun.

[dshipp17]

It's case of lack of development, because new writers are allowed to introduce their own villains. Azzarello pointed out that he thought about using Dr. Psycho, but, went with First Born instead. Azzarello had a very rare opportunity to reverse the trend and do it in the most profound and best way possible, by finally embracing Dr. Psycho as Wonder Woman's Joker or Lex, but drop the ball.

The mistake here was Perez made Wonder Woman immune to Dr. Psycho; instead, if his powers remained effective, Dr. Psycho could be a very good villain. By the time of Rucka's run, Wonder Woman could only defend against him, thanks to Athena's eyes. JMS or Hester removed her immunity altogether, but, DC editors just did not use Dr. Psycho, where most of it has to be Azzarello's run, but, certainly, the Finch(es) should scrap their current plans and use Dr. Psycho and develop him as a villain. Cheetah was already used in Justice League. I have no idea why Finch doesn't seem to have thought of Dr. Psycho unless there are some big future plans for Dr. Psycho, but, it should be in the Wonder Woman book. Good Wonder Woman stories will be suspended, until we see Dr. Psycho in the Wonder Woman book again.

[kivatt]

It's case of lack of development, because new writers are allowed to introduce their own villains. Azzarello pointed out that he thought about using Dr. Psycho, but, went with First Born instead. Azzarello had a very rare opportunity to reverse the trend and do it in the most profound and best way possible, by finally embracing Dr. Psycho as Wonder Woman's Joker or Lex, but drop the ball.

The mistake here was Perez made Wonder Woman immune to Dr. Psycho; instead, if his powers remained effective, Dr. Psycho could be a very good villain. By the time of Rucka's run, Wonder Woman could only defend against him, thanks to Athena's eyes. JMS or Hester removed her immunity altogether, but, DC editors just did not use Dr. Psycho, where most of it has to be Azzarello's run, but, certainly, the Finch(es) should scrap their current plans and use Dr. Psycho and develop him as a villain. Cheetah was already used in Justice League. I have no idea why Finch doesn't seem to have thought of Dr. Psycho unless there are some big future plans for Dr. Psycho, but, it should be in the Wonder Woman book. Good Wonder Woman stories will be suspended, until we see Dr. Psycho in the Wonder Woman book again.

It's case of lack of development, because new writers are allowed to introduce their own villains. Azzarello pointed out that he thought about using Dr. Psycho, but, went with First Born instead. Azzarello had a very rare opportunity to reverse the trend and do it in the most profound and best way possible, by finally embracing Dr. Psycho as Wonder Woman's Joker or Lex, but drop the ball.

The mistake here was Perez made Wonder Woman immune to Dr. Psycho; instead, if his powers remained effective, Dr. Psycho could be a very good villain. By the time of Rucka's run, Wonder Woman could only defend against him, thanks to Athena's eyes. JMS or Hester removed her immunity altogether, but, DC editors just did not use Dr. Psycho, where most of it has to be Azzarello's run, but, certainly, the Finch(es) should scrap their current plans and use Dr. Psycho and develop him as a villain. Cheetah was already used in Justice League. I have no idea why Finch doesn't seem to have thought of Dr. Psycho unless there are some big future plans for Dr. Psycho, but, it should be in the Wonder Woman book. Good Wonder Woman stories will be suspended, until we see Dr. Psycho in the Wonder Woman book again.

I bring you back to this "Meredith: We knew we wanted to bring someone from her rogues’ gallery into this next arc and start to flesh that out. And I really left it up to David, because I didn't care. I didn't have an attachment to any of the villains in her past.

So I said to Dave, who would be the coolest for you to draw? And I let him make the decision, and we worked the story from that."

You have a creative team where the writer doesn't even care about her Rogues Gallery. I'd rather they put a new creative team on the book, and work with that. Hell I'd rather have Azzarello come back, and work with her old rogues gallery.

Circe
Cheetah
Cassandra the Mad
Giganta

Wre-ehkkked...



And how!

The four women presently in-continuity are no slouches. Circe brings magic and a mythological tie-in - Diana's Loki. So far, Cheetah proves an adequate physical match - an anti-Wondy. Giganta is big and crazy. Cassandra the Mad brings a technological threat and has exhibited sufficient intellect to run the show, ..adding even extra melodrama, as Diana's blood half-sister. It doesn't have to be an all-lady operation, but, the current line-up looks pretty dangerous.

I know. I would love to see Cheetah, mop either Superman or the Flash again.

An event involving either of them would be amazing. Hell bring back First Born, Dr. Psycho, Cheetah and Circe. They would mop the Justice League. Make it a full DC event, where you can include the other teams. Would be a good way to have the Dark Universe be involved with them.