Thor Odinson Appreciation 2018

[JKtheMac]

Because he was one of their bigger writers and had his own story to tell on the title?

I don't think Marvel put him on the book because they believed there was something about Thor that needed to be fixed or that there were things writers have been needing to sort out for years. At least no moreso then most other properties.

Well no, actually I don't think that either. Although, he is on record as saying he asked for Thor and was given it by Axel before he had actually thought of what story to tell, and that he wasn't previously a 'huge Thor fan', in that he was mostly familiar with the character through Simonson, the early concept from Kirby, and the Fraction minis. He clearly wasn't the kind of guy to have read everything or to have worried about those things I worry about. He clearly isn't an academic minded person like me either if you listen to him talk about how he writes or his approach, but his instincts match mine.

I don't expect him to ever actually mention the events of Roy Thomas' retcon, although I would bet his editorial team have explained the gist of that and where exactly Thor has been in the last few decades as a character. I just expect him to tidy things up a bit. The last thing I want is a sweeping retcon to fix the last sweeping retcon. That way lies madness and the death of a franchise. JMS didn't try that either. Fraction kind of did when he just stated blatantly that 'this new Blake isn't real' despite the carefully laid plans to allow him to be as real as anyone ever wanted.

Perhaps my feelings are better expressed by saying Aaron is the ideal guy to sort things out because he writes unafraid of continuity. He is prepared to get his hands dirty, and he is prepared to upset the apple cart. That is what you get when you choose Aaron. That is probably why Axel didn't need a pitch from him. Marvel trust him. Axel and Aaron have a history together anyway. That is what I want in a writer of a character I like. I don't want them to endlessly keep fans happy and never do anything significant. I want them to leave the character changed for the better.

[JKtheMac]

I was revisiting the recent interview with Aaron on Off Panel, and thought I would try and paraphrase his thoughts on the whole atheist question, and his perspective on the whisper, because they are clearer in his own words:

I have always leaned into the idea of Thor as a god… To me they are gods because that is what makes thor different to all the other characters in the Marvel Universe… To me as an atheist how do I approach that? So I have always written Thor as the god I would like to believe in…

[Gor] is a despicable character but he’s got a point of view I can relate to. I think you see that stuff through my whole run. Not me trying to preach about being an atheist because I think the book is very much a celebration of gods, and Thor as a god, but there are moments he points out gods are kind of terrible, ‘Maybe we would be better off without you?’ Thor has his own ideas about that - hearing the truth of that - because what Nick Fury was saying was truth, he can see the truth in all things, so him telling Thor Odinson that, confirming what he clearly already had doubts about, that made him unable to pick up the hammer.

Source - Off Panel #119

[GodThor]

I was revisiting the recent interview with Aaron on Off Panel, and thought I would try and paraphrase his thoughts on the whole atheist question, and his perspective on the whisper, because they are clearer in his own words:

I have always leaned into the idea of Thor as a god… To me they are gods because that is what makes thor different to all the other characters in the Marvel Universe… To me as an atheist how do I approach that? So I have always written Thor as the god I would like to believe in…

most important thing to me.

[Digifiend]

When the Odinson met Superman and Lois Lane...

From Mighty Thor #341 by Walt Simonson. Beta Ray Bill was Thor at this point.

[kilderkin]

I was revisiting the recent interview with Aaron on Off Panel, and thought I would try and paraphrase his thoughts on the whole atheist question, and his perspective on the whisper, because they are clearer in his own words:

I have always leaned into the idea of Thor as a god… To me they are gods because that is what makes thor different to all the other characters in the Marvel Universe… To me as an atheist how do I approach that? So I have always written Thor as the god I would like to believe in…

[Gor] is a despicable character but he’s got a point of view I can relate to. I think you see that stuff through my whole run. Not me trying to preach about being an atheist because I think the book is very much a celebration of gods, and Thor as a god, but there are moments he points out gods are kind of terrible, ‘Maybe we would be better off without you?’ Thor has his own ideas about that - hearing the truth of that - because what Nick Fury was saying was truth, he can see the truth in all things, so him telling Thor Odinson that, confirming what he clearly already had doubts about, that made him unable to pick up the hammer.

Source - Off Panel #119

Im sure I don't really get what he means here

As I understand it he us saying fury could see we woukd be better off with the gods and that are not worthy of being called such

On the other hand we know and the unworthy mini showed thor as a hero and reaffirmed his identity

ill be honest I just don't get his point at all in this, to me it's nonsense even within its own mythos

Sure I get a lot if the gods are a waste, but there's some key heros in that lot, Thor biggest among them

it just does not scan at all imo

[JKtheMac]

Im sure I don't really get what he means here

As I understand it he us saying fury could see we woukd be better off with the gods and that are not worthy of being called such

On the other hand we know and the unworthy mini showed thor as a hero and reaffirmed his identity

ill be honest I just don't get his point at all in this, to me it's nonsense even within its own mythos

Sure I get a lot if the gods are a waste, but there's some key heros in that lot, Thor biggest among them

it just does not scan at all imo

I am not even sure what you are not getting.

Look at what Odinson says when asked by Beta-Ray "Right about what?"

"About everything. Gods are vain and vengeful creatures. Always have been. The mortals who've worshipped us for centuries would be better off without us. We gods do not deserve their love. No matter how much we fight to fool ourselves. We are all unworthy."

There is complexity here. Is it really true that Gor was right about everything? That doesn't seem true at all. No, this is Odinson's perspective on what Gor said. A personal view that contains a lot of baggage and self doubt. We know as readers that some of this has truth in it, but that some of it is just wrong. Beta-Ray clearly cuts through the nonsense when he replies.

"Every day you give your blood, your tears, your immortal soul, to prove Gor wrong. The gods may not be worthy but you are no mere god my friend. You're Thor."

And therin is the truth. Gor was right about the gods in general. He was wrong about Thor, and Thor will prove it (notably it is something he needs to achieve, not just be). More, this is setting up his destiny as the worthy god. Not worthy because of some inscription but because of his actions and their context. What he stands for. The example to gods and the champion of mortals. Surely that is a glorious destiny?

This reflects religion in general. As many Christians will explain to atheists if they are of a mind to listen, one is not good just because one is a Christian, one is good because of what they do through the example of Christ. That is a fundamental issue of many religions, there is no place for self-righteousness. However such self-righteousness is often a part of religion. Here we get an analogy of the gods themselves being self-righteous. We need the saviour figure. The example to all. The good god. This is surely just an extension of the theme that has always sat at the heart of Thor since the Lee and Kirby retcon but never fully expressed or teased out.

[kilderkin]

I am not even sure what you are not getting.

Look at what Odinson says when asked by Beta-Ray "Right about what?"

"About everything. Gods are vain and vengeful creatures. Always have been. The mortals who've worshipped us for centuries would be better off without us. We gods do not deserve their love. No matter how much we fight to fool ourselves. We are all unworthy."

There is complexity here. Is it really true that Gor was right about everything? That doesn't seem true at all. No, this is Odinson's perspective on what Gor said. A personal view that contains a lot of baggage and self doubt. We know as readers that some of this has truth in it, but that some of it is just wrong. Beta-Ray clearly cuts through the nonsense when he replies.

"Every day you give your blood, your tears, your immortal soul, to prove Gor wrong. The gods may not be worthy but you are no mere god my friend. You're Thor."

And therin is the truth. Gor was right about the gods in general. He was wrong about Thor, and Thor will prove it (notably it is something he needs to achieve, not just be). More, this is setting up his destiny as the worthy god. Not worthy because of some inscription but because of his actions and their context. What he stands for. The example to gods and the champion of mortals. Surely that is a glorious destiny?

This reflects religion in general. As many Christians will explain to atheists if they are of a mind to listen, one is not good just because one is a Christian, one is good because of what they do through the example of Christ. That is a fundamental issue of many religions, there is no place for self-righteousness. However such self-righteousness is often a part of religion. Here we get an analogy of the gods themselves being self-righteous. We need the saviour figure. The example to all. The good god. This is surely just an extension of the theme that has always sat at the heart of Thor since the Lee and Kirby retcon but never fully expressed or teased out.

Thanks for such details reply and synopsis

in my opinion this has really crystallised that I feel it's a very biased run in dealing with thor

Jane aside coz she good

But I feel there's too much real life views tainting this treatment of Thor and Asgardian mythos

The quotes really clarify that this is a tainted treatment - no question now for me

No time for this till its with a creative that imo can write the mythos without needing to slant it which I feel in my opinion in being done

[juan678]

art by Leandro Matos

[JKtheMac]

But I feel there's too much real life views tainting this treatment of Thor and Asgardian mythos
The quotes really clarify that this is a tainted treatment - no question now for me

But it is "tainted" in the exact same way as Kirby, Simonson and Jurgens. Each have explored these issues in their own way. Beta-Ray Bill is equally a commentary on the messiah notion. Thor became a messiah figure as soon as he was "sent to earth" in the same way Superman is.

It is no coincidence that Beta-Ray is leading the way here. Setting Thor on his path.

[HaveAtThee]

Lee and Kirby wanted to make a character similar to Superman in that aspect. Even more dramatically they chose the Norse pantheon to create an entire corner of Marvel. We can see the themes they were addressing during their whole run (really Kirby was cutting loose). Man, reading some of those older stories alongside Fantastic Four, those two titles were just incredible in terms of conceptual imagination. Especially from Kirby.

One thing I'd like to see from Thor writers is the return of a proper speech pattern akin to Simonson/Jurgens, in that it's not quite Middle English but it comes close. I think that is an overlooked aspect of the unique nature of Asgardians. These days they sound just like regular people. I'm sure the films have something to do with it.

[kilderkin]

But it is "tainted" in the exact same way as Kirby, Simonson and Jurgens. Each have explored these issues in their own way. Beta-Ray Bill is equally a commentary on the messiah notion. Thor became a messiah figure as soon as he was "sent to earth" in the same way Superman is.

It is no coincidence that Beta-Ray is leading the way here. Setting Thor on his path.

Oh yes I agree it's not at all original in that regard

And it being that way is fine if you like it - I think that the synopsis has made very clear to me that, despite my enjoyment of jane in the book, overall I really dislike this treatment of the mythos overall

Which until fairly recently I was undecided about

Still I'm looking forward to jane vs the Mangog coz I think it's gonna be a blast

also, especially since this is an appreciation thread, I'll try to keep my less enthusiastic notions to myself

I'm still loving janes journey into mystery here (sorry couldn't resist)

And it remains a beautifully designed book

[kilderkin]

Lee and Kirby wanted to make a character similar to Superman in that aspect. Even more dramatically they chose the Norse pantheon to create an entire corner of Marvel. We can see the themes they were addressing during their whole run (really Kirby was cutting loose). Man, reading some of those older stories alongside Fantastic Four, those two titles were just incredible in terms of conceptual imagination. Especially from Kirby.

One thing I'd like to see from Thor writers is the return of a proper speech pattern akin to Simonson/Jurgens, in that it's not quite Middle English but it comes close. I think that is an overlooked aspect of the unique nature of Asgardians. These days they sound just like regular people. I'm sure the films have something to do with it.

I agree

At the moment they are altogether too human for me

Not otherworldly enough at all

Alien maybe but not in the magical sense, just like any other extraterrestrial body

I think the movies are like that too but it's likely a coincidence

they still look great and the visuals are very powerfully mysterious and magical in nature imo

[Frontier]

One thing I'd like to see from Thor writers is the return of a proper speech pattern akin to Simonson/Jurgens, in that it's not quite Middle English but it comes close. I think that is an overlooked aspect of the unique nature of Asgardians. These days they sound just like regular people. I'm sure the films have something to do with it.

I haven't really cared for Aaron's more crass and blunt speech for Thor and the Asgardians, though I think that also dates back to Fraction/Bendis, so I agree with you.

[JKtheMac]

Lee and Kirby wanted to make a character similar to Superman in that aspect. Even more dramatically they chose the Norse pantheon to create an entire corner of Marvel. We can see the themes they were addressing during their whole run (really Kirby was cutting loose). Man, reading some of those older stories alongside Fantastic Four, those two titles were just incredible in terms of conceptual imagination. Especially from Kirby.

One thing I'd like to see from Thor writers is the return of a proper speech pattern akin to Simonson/Jurgens, in that it's not quite Middle English but it comes close. I think that is an overlooked aspect of the unique nature of Asgardians. These days they sound just like regular people. I'm sure the films have something to do with it.

Presumably you are referring to the pseudo Shakespearian speech? I.e A kind of heightened Elizabethan metre. I don't mind that when it is done well. Not many writers can. Stan could do it passably but it was a little camp. He loved to read Shakespeare aloud. It doesn't always work well though. Let the writers play to their strengths.

Aaron uses a strong formally accented English for Allspeak. It is reasonably well pitched to not be too camp or to risk misusing Thee and Thy or the worst culprit Thine.

[JKtheMac]

Oh yes I agree it's not at all original in that regard

You twist my words. It most certainly is original. It is just a theme chosen from existing canon.