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  1. #5011
    Astonishing Member Thievery's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    No I don’t think you need to read his Avengers. There are complementary ideas and themes. With Avengers focusing on the beginning of history and Thor focusing on the end. Both are constructing a mythological backdrop.
    Thank you for the information. My wallet says thanks as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by GodThor View Post
    Odin is trashed even in the What Ifs? LoL.
    I don't hate Odin, as I think he fits his role well in Thor, but it's still always great to see him trashed, in my opinion.

  2. #5012
    Astonishing Member Panic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchAngelSliver View Post
    I don't hate Odin, as I think he fits his role well in Thor, but it's still always great to see him trashed, in my opinion.
    That's because you presumably have only started reading Thor in recent years. Odin has been the victim of character assassination for a while now, being presented as an example of a bad authority figure representing a morally backwards people, and the reader is encouraged to cheer when he gets humiliated because he deserves it. He's a far cry from the god of wisdom he was in Simonson's era.

  3. #5013
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Panic View Post
    That's because you presumably have only started reading Thor in recent years. Odin has been the victim of character assassination for a while now, being presented as an example of a bad authority figure representing a morally backwards people, and the reader is encouraged to cheer when he gets humiliated because he deserves it. He's a far cry from the god of wisdom he was in Simonson's era.
    That’s a very odd analysis from my perspective. I know the threads have hashed this argument to death, but I just can’t see how you can honestly justify this claim. Odin was always an antagonist for Thor, even in Simonson. The only difference in the way each writer has juggled this essential aspect of his nature is how they balance his antagonist side with his supportive side.

    Some, like Simonson brought out the father/son dynamic such that his antagonist side was essentially well meaning, and others have leaned into the idea that a father figure can also be challenging and emphasised the negative sides of patriarchy. Kirby and Lee are the touchstone to the character, from which all of this springs. Variously in the early comics he was a supportive father and also a stifling and rigid influence. Everyone else, including Simonson, has touched upon this tension in Odin.

  4. #5014
    Astonishing Member Panic's Avatar
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    We have had this argument before, and I always find your view on Simonson's Odin a radical reinterpretation of the text. He's not an antagonist in relation to Thor in Simonson's run any more than Yoda is an antagonist in relation to Luke in TESB. In fact Simonson goes out of the way to explain the Lee/Kirby Odin's bipolar nature by saying that Odin's actions are often not what they appear to be on the surface, but are the attempts of a mentor to lead a student where he needs to go in order to grow. Simonson's Odin is playful and deceptive, but above all wise and kindly. You never roll your eyes at Simonson's Odin and think "wow, what a tool" like you do with the more modern interpretation.

    The Lee/Kirby Odin was used as a dangerous authoritarian figure that would sit in judgement over Thor, sometimes helping him, other times antagonistic, but at the end of the day he had to be seen to be someone worthy of Thor's love and loyalty otherwise the reader wouldn't respect Thor for supporting him. Yes he could appear harsh (his judgement of Thor as arrogant, for example), but even at his worst he was never portrayed in the way he has been in recent years - unpleasant and lacking in wisdom.

    If you can find a scan of Simonson's Odin behaving like Aaron's, by all means post it.

  5. #5015
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    But you yourself have just described an antagonist. An antagonist is a character that complicates the hero’s life and places obstacles in their way. Odin in Simonson does this. Simonson does indeed play up this idea of Odin usually having a deeper motive and doing what is best for Thor, but that’s still being an antagonist. No other writer has quite emphasised this element as stongly as Simonson. For him it was clearly a solution to the problem he saw in how Kirby positioned him. Simonson himself that was one of the first writers to talk about this problem with Kirby’s Odin.

  6. #5016
    Astonishing Member Panic's Avatar
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    But my original point which you objected to was that Aaron's Odin is not like Simonson's. Simonson smoothed the rough edges off the Lee/Kirby version, explaining the two seemingly opposed facets of his nature as a wise man who occasionally wears the mask of a tyrant in order to make his son think and grow on his own; Aaron's Odin, from what I have seen, really is the stupid little tyrant Simonson said was just a ruse; Aaron has a view diametrically opposed to Simonson's, and has actually gone much further than Lee ever did, effectively adding even rougher edges. There is no deeper, hidden motive, no complex deception - Aaron's Odin is a man who deserves to be humbled. That seems to be Aaron's view of him, and it is a world away from Simonson's. And that is exactly the point I was making.

  7. #5017
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Panic View Post
    But my original point which you objected to was that Aaron's Odin is not like Simonson's. Simonson smoothed the rough edges off the Lee/Kirby version, explaining the two seemingly opposed facets of his nature as a wise man who occasionally wears the mask of a tyrant in order to make his son think and grow on his own; Aaron's Odin, from what I have seen, really is the stupid little tyrant Simonson said was just a ruse; Aaron has a view diametrically opposed to Simonson's, and has actually gone much further than Lee ever did, effectively adding even rougher edges. There is no deeper, hidden motive, no complex deception - Aaron's Odin is a man who deserves to be humbled. That seems to be Aaron's view of him, and it is a world away from Simonson's. And that is exactly the point I was making.
    And nothing about Aaron’s Odin is new. It is all rooted in the history of the character. A history that Simonson himself started to bring out and that Roy Thomas eventually solidified to the character we see today.

  8. #5018
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    I really don't see much of Simonson's Odin in Aaron's.

    He feels a lot like an Odin with any all nuance and depth taken away in lieu of a blustering and sexist buffoon who I can't see anyone willingly following for as long as they have, but now apparently everyone always hated Odin being the Allfather, even Balder.

  9. #5019
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I really don't see much of Simonson's Odin in Aaron's.

    He feels a lot like an Odin with any all nuance and depth taken away in lieu of a blustering and sexist buffoon who I can't see anyone willingly following for as long as they have, but now apparently everyone always hated Odin being the Allfather, even Balder.
    Totally agree, whilst odin could be a jerk on the surface he always had a greater purpose to this

    Aaron's odin (and somewhat before him) to me is very one dimensional, with few if any redemptive properties

    I do think Aaron has purposely done this due to his purported real world views, though I could be wrong there

    Whatever the motif, I find little in Aaron's odin, or indeed Thor that reflects the majority of their history as characters

    I realise others will disagree strongly, but to me it reads as little more than a virtual destruction of both characters in my view

  10. #5020
    Astonishing Member Panic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    And nothing about Aaron’s Odin is new. It is all rooted in the history of the character. A history that Simonson himself started to bring out and that Roy Thomas eventually solidified to the character we see today.
    It is new - or at least newish. Aaron isn't the first Marvel writer to portray Odin this way, there have been complaints about the direction Thor and Odin have been pushed for several years before Aaron did his thing.

    Even in the Lee/Kirby run Odin's wisdom was stressed, as you would expect from a god of wisdom; this is exactly was is absent from Aaron's version. Aaron has created a caricature of Odin's worst moments, exaggerated and distorted into a grotesque. If Simonson evolved Odin from Lee/Kirby's wise but overbearing authority figure, Aaron has gone in totally the other direction and devolved him. There is nothing solid about the character we see today, except perhaps the space between his ears. The character development we saw in Simonson's Odin has been thrown out in favour of turning him into, as Frontier says: "a blustering and sexist buffoon" that you wouldn't want in charge of anything, let alone a world.

  11. #5021
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Panic View Post
    It is new - or at least newish. Aaron isn't the first Marvel writer to portray Odin this way, there have been complaints about the direction Thor and Odin have been pushed for several years before Aaron did his thing.

    Even in the Lee/Kirby run Odin's wisdom was stressed, as you would expect from a god of wisdom; this is exactly was is absent from Aaron's version. Aaron has created a caricature of Odin's worst moments, exaggerated and distorted into a grotesque. If Simonson evolved Odin from Lee/Kirby's wise but overbearing authority figure, Aaron has gone in totally the other direction and devolved him. There is nothing solid about the character we see today, except perhaps the space between his ears. The character development we saw in Simonson's Odin has been thrown out in favour of turning him into, as Frontier says: "a blustering and sexist buffoon" that you wouldn't want in charge of anything, let alone a world.
    Well now we are right back into rehashesd argument territory because I believe you have to warp Aaron’s story out of recognition to make this assertion, but until Aaron finishes with his story it won’t be clear exactly what he is doing with the character.

  12. #5022
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    My first post on the forum, although I've been following this thread occasionally! It must be Odin's fault!

    It's true that Aaron's Odin isn't exactly a new character, but that's not an 'excuse'. I mean, he is perfectly functional for the stories Aaron wants to tell, but nothing more than that. He is not someone I want to read about in his own title. So, he's not a 'good' character or interesting character per se, not for me, and, as I can clearly see on this forum, not for the majority of posters.

    But, yes, Simonson's Odin is so much above the other versions, it's not even a matter of taste. Although it can be a matter of one's own beliefs. So, if someone wishes him to be a despotic, unwise, petty king of gods (among other things) and nothing more, because it suits their vision of how gods should behave, then I can do nothing about it. But that aside, I am not even sure what is the point of conflict here. That Aaron has ruined him? I don't believe so, although I didn't read much of his run, because I didn't find it as captivating as many people think. If someone 'ruined' Odin after Simonson's highs, that was Tom DeFalco, but I don't want to go around blaming anyone for things like that. The same is true with Jane Foster: Aaron didn't ruin the sacred magic of Mjolnir, but Tom DeFalco once more when he allowed Captain America to hold it, simplifying the prerequisites for wielding the hammer. (Although it might have something to do with Mark Gruenwald, who championed Captain.) But, pushing things that way would be a misdirection - it was almost necessary and by default that something like that would happen. After highs you can go only down. But I can't recall people going around and blaming DeFalco for that. Perhaps because we didn't have social networks and forums to magnify things and emotions back then. The only thing that happened was that many people stopped buying the magazine.

    As for why Odin has been staying down ever since, gradually hitting new lows, well, that's another problem. It's easier that way, I think. Powerful and wise Odin is not easy to write. Even Simonson had to remove him from the scene for indefinite time.

    But his version is still head and shoulders and torso and an empty eye socket above all the rest. There is no contest here.

  13. #5023
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox_Nihil View Post
    My first post on the forum, although I've been following this thread occasionally! It must be Odin's fault!

    It's true that Aaron's Odin isn't exactly a new character, but that's not an 'excuse'. I mean, he is perfectly functional for the stories Aaron wants to tell, but nothing more than that. He is not someone I want to read about in his own title. So, he's not a 'good' character or interesting character per se, not for me, and, as I can clearly see on this forum, not for the majority of posters.

    But, yes, Simonson's Odin is so much above the other versions, it's not even a matter of taste. Although it can be a matter of one's own beliefs. So, if someone wishes him to be a despotic, unwise, petty king of gods (among other things) and nothing more, because it suits their vision of how gods should behave, then I can do nothing about it. But that aside, I am not even sure what is the point of conflict here. That Aaron has ruined him? I don't believe so, although I didn't read much of his run, because I didn't find it as captivating as many people think. If someone 'ruined' Odin after Simonson's highs, that was Tom DeFalco, but I don't want to go around blaming anyone for things like that. The same is true with Jane Foster: Aaron didn't ruin the sacred magic of Mjolnir, but Tom DeFalco once more when he allowed Captain America to hold it, simplifying the prerequisites for wielding the hammer. (Although it might have something to do with Mark Gruenwald, who championed Captain.) But, pushing things that way would be a misdirection - it was almost necessary and by default that something like that would happen. After highs you can go only down. But I can't recall people going around and blaming DeFalco for that. Perhaps because we didn't have social networks and forums to magnify things and emotions back then. The only thing that happened was that many people stopped buying the magazine.

    As for why Odin has been staying down ever since, gradually hitting new lows, well, that's another problem. It's easier that way, I think. Powerful and wise Odin is not easy to write. Even Simonson had to remove him from the scene for indefinite time.

    But his version is still head and shoulders and torso and an empty eye socket above all the rest. There is no contest here.
    on a personal perspective I think Aaron's handling of jane with the hammer was generally very good, I think it's gonna happen again soonish, especially if thor dies or leaves the mcu once Hemsworths contract is complete, as a culmination of the war of the realms which might coincide with an mcu thor departure

  14. #5024
    Mighty Member Coin Biter's Avatar
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    What I find disappointing about a blustering oaf take on Odin is that it’s perhaps the least interesting portrayal that could be made of perhaps consistently the most interesting figure of the Norse pantheon. The wise and sinister ruler of the myths; the conflicted, complex, and devious figure in Wagner’s Ring Cycle; the fatal trickster in Gaiman’s work; the erratic but awe-inspiring figure in Lee/Kirby; the benign and intelligent patriarch of Simonson; the compromised and elegiac figure of Thor: Ragnarök ... all to be preferred to cosmic Donald Trump.
    Last edited by Coin Biter; 10-21-2018 at 04:16 PM.

  15. #5025
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    Hell, I’d prefer Alan Moore’s cameo Odin in Top 10

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