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  1. #5041
    Astonishing Member GodThor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wall-Crawler View Post
    Just when I think JKtheMac can't come up with any worse excuses to justify Aaron, he goes and outdoes himself.
    you have to give him a credit for that, fam.

  2. #5042
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox_Nihil View Post
    Lee and Kirby? I respect them very much, and Kirby has done some of the the best things in comics ever, in my opinion, but in Thor they didn't have a systematic approach or a plan. They were inventing things as they went. So, naturally, they often contradicted themselves. And, consequentially, there is no point in referring to them in this matter, because you can 'prove' anything, similar to referring to the Bible (if somebody is religious here, I apologize for this comparison).
    Not sure you quite understand why I am referring to them then. I am not using them as figures of authority I am using them as an example of exactly your point, and pointing out that anyone that goes back to some of this for inspiration is just doing the job of a comic book writer.

    Roy Thomas? What he has to do with this?
    Try reading his work in Odin and looking at what he was responsible for as an editor. On second thoughts don’t. But he is the most prominent writer to make Odin a duplicitous and selfish character.

    And, contrary to what you've actually said here, Simonson used Odin with a clear role and purpose. You could say he even reshaped his entire Marvel universe for that role, but that was a coherent vision, made with that idea from the beginning. Which Marvel abandoned almost immediately, but...whatever.
    No idea what I said contrary to this. I agree he did use Odin in a very coherent manner. But it is important to understand what he did technically, which was to find his own solution to the ‘Odin Problem’ which was a hangover from the incoherence of Lee and Kirby’s era and everything that came before. What he did was find a way to use him as an antagonist and also as an ally that made sense and drove his story. That’s not in dispute. It isn’t the only way to solve this problem, and it seems you agree with this.

    It is not a very useful criticism to continually say writers that choose a different solution to how to use Odin, are doing it wrong. As you point out, they can do whatever they want within the editorial oversight of Marvel. Aaron has a plan for Odin. He is using him much more prominently in Avengers. That plan has not fully revealed itself.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 10-24-2018 at 06:36 AM.

  3. #5043
    Astonishing Member GodThor's Avatar
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    get ready for another epic destruction

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DqSH7elWkAEF8_n.jpg

  4. #5044
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    Quote Originally Posted by GodThor View Post
    get ready for another epic destruction

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DqSH7elWkAEF8_n.jpg
    Sentry/Void is more powerful than Thor to be fair.

    He pretty much swatted them away in the issue.

    Although, I’d appreciate if writers didn’t use the Avengers as fodder like we’ve seen recently. Yes, they took down the Hulk but that’s after he did a number on them. They are Marvel’s premiere team, they should be treated a little more carefully.

  5. #5045
    Astonishing Member GodThor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    Sentry/Void is more powerful than Thor to be fair.

    He pretty much swatted them away in the issue.

    Although, I’d appreciate if writers didn’t use the Avengers as fodder like we’ve seen recently. Yes, they took down the Hulk but that’s after he did a number on them. They are Marvel’s premiere team, they should be treated a little more carefully.
    oh yeah, I know.

    it's just tiring, like you said, getting them stomped like that lately, especially Thor.

  6. #5046
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    Thor #157 Oct 1968
    "Behind Him...Ragnarok!"
    Balder and the Legion of the Lost escape Karnilla and join the battle against Mangog;

    Odin awakens in time to stop Mangog from drawing the Odinsword.


    Script by Stan Lee, pencils by Jack Kirby, inks by Vince Colletta

  7. #5047
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    Quote Originally Posted by GodThor View Post
    you have to give him a credit for that, fam.
    Haha, I guess you're right.

  8. #5048
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    Quote Originally Posted by 616MarvelYear is LeapYear View Post
    Thor #157 Oct 1968
    "Behind Him...Ragnarok!"
    Balder and the Legion of the Lost escape Karnilla and join the battle against Mangog;

    Odin awakens in time to stop Mangog from drawing the Odinsword.


    Script by Stan Lee, pencils by Jack Kirby, inks by Vince Colletta

    And there's how an Allfather deals with a little monster

  9. #5049
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kilderkin View Post
    And there's how an Allfather deals with a little monster
    Unfortunately this is very soon retconned in a way that suggests Odin is not quite doing what he appears to be doing or quite telling the truth about what he did in the past. But that’s Odin for you.

    It is still an unresolved mystery what exactly happened to that race of billions.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 10-24-2018 at 02:52 PM.

  10. #5050
    Unstoppable Member KC's Avatar
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    Has anyone read the What if Thor issue that came out today?

    It was more of a Loki story, but it was still really good. A follow-up was teased at the end and I hope Marvel does it.
    “Somewhere, in our darkest night, we made up the story of a man who will never let us down.”

    - Grant Morrison on Superman

  11. #5051
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    Not sure you quite understand why I am referring to them then. I am not using them as figures of authority I am using them as an example of exactly your point, and pointing out that anyone that goes back to some of this for inspiration is just doing the job of a comic book writer.
    Then we agree in some points, at least. (It may have something to do with English not being my native language.) But my displeasure with Aaron's portrayal of Odin is based on something else: as I see it, on his own (without the context of the story and his place in it) he is dangerously close to being a caricature. And he would not be out of place in a newspaper strip such as Hagar the Horrible. Mind you, this is not a comparison of the stories or the talents of Simonson and Aaron; this is only about the respective Odins.

    Try reading his work in Odin and looking at what he was responsible for as an editor. On second thoughts don’t. But he is the most prominent writer to make Odin a duplicitous and selfish character.
    Oh, I know his work pretty well, but Simonson dismissed his central concept very strongly. Anyway, Roy Thomas was the Thor writer of my childhood. His (first) run was extremely important and created many tropes that would influence Marvel universe in general, and The Mighty Thor in particular, for many years afterwards. Of course, his stories haven't aged very well by themselves. No... when I think about it now, I can see some parts were already old when they first appeared . He wrote 3 stories, and the second and the third were weaved together and finished by Gruenwald and Macchio, and it wasn't clear (to me, at least) how much of the published ending was part of his own plan. The first story was the false Ragnarok, then there was the Eternals saga, and, while we were in the middle of it, Roy said:"Hey, do you guys know the Volsunga Saga? It's great! Let me tell you how it goes..." To be honest, I like the Volsunga Saga, even adore it, but it dragged too much and without a strong connection to the tale of the Eternals and the judgment of the Celestials. And then Roy was gone, and what we got from Gruenwald and Macchio was one of the greatest anticlimaxes in the history of comic endings.

    Simonson used well some situations Roy had started. For example, during Thomas' run, Odin gave his eye for wisdom, and Balder was killed by a magical arrow and his spirit sent to Hel. But his most influential contribution was the invention of the Ragnarok cycle, or the cyclical nature of the existence of gods. They rise and then they fall. And other gods rise in their stead (or the same ones rise again, depending on who you ask), and so on and on... And many Thor writers have been following that concept for almost forty years now. Except Simonson, who went his own way, and Straczynski, who was not interested in that subject matter. (Only the longer runs considered!)


    No idea what I said contrary to this. I agree he did use Odin in a very coherent manner. But it is important to understand what he did technically, which was to find his own solution to the ‘Odin Problem’ which was a hangover from the incoherence of Lee and Kirby’s era and everything that came before. What he did was find a way to use him as an antagonist and also as an ally that made sense and drove his story. That’s not in dispute. It isn’t the only way to solve this problem, and it seems you agree with this.
    Ok, sorry if I misunderstood you.

    It is not a very useful criticism to continually say writers that choose a different solution to how to use Odin, are doing it wrong. As you point out, they can do whatever they want within the editorial oversight of Marvel. Aaron has a plan for Odin. He is using him much more prominently in Avengers. That plan has not fully revealed itself.
    Yeah, but Aaron isn't famous as someone who can make a mind-shattering narrative somersault out of nowhere. That isn't his forte. If there was a great plan, we would see the seeds in the comic - or, at least, careful readers would see them. But I will not dismiss that possibility entirely. So, I am judging based on the info we have now. That is all we can do.

  12. #5052
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    Unfortunately this is very soon retconned in a way that suggests Odin is not quite doing what he appears to be doing or quite telling the truth about what he did in the past. But that’s Odin for you.

    It is still an unresolved mystery what exactly happened to that race of billions.
    He just beat him easily, it's not really that complicated

    Anything afterward was just that, an afterthought

    Just like Starlin saying thor only beat a clone of thanos

  13. #5053
    Astonishing Member GodThor's Avatar
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    I can't recall when was the last time Odin was powerful.

    He is a jobber like Thor sadly.

  14. #5054
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kilderkin View Post
    He just beat him easily, it's not really that complicated

    Anything afterward was just that, an afterthought

    Just like Starlin saying thor only beat a clone of thanos
    Not really how canon works though is it?

  15. #5055
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox_Nihil View Post
    Then we agree in some points, at least. (It may have something to do with English not being my native language.) But my displeasure with Aaron's portrayal of Odin is based on something else: as I see it, on his own (without the context of the story and his place in it) he is dangerously close to being a caricature. And he would not be out of place in a newspaper strip such as Hagar the Horrible. Mind you, this is not a comparison of the stories or the talents of Simonson and Aaron; this is only about the respective Odins.
    You talk of careful reading. A careful reading of Odin, his situation and his perspective as he comes back into Thor continuity under Aaron provides quite a few clues as to why he is acting out of character. I am not going to repeat my thesis of the underlying political ideas of Odin’s return here but they can be found in the old thread. Suffice to say I sympathise with Odin. He has been worked on for years and then sent out in to a world he is struggling to come to terms with. What he has said in anger doesn’t necessarily represent his true nature. He has been very angry. He’s like a gun that somebody else loaded IMO.

    Oh, I know his work pretty well, but Simonson dismissed his central concept very strongly.
    He is responsible for modern Odin. But not in his pre-Simonson stories as much as the one he wrote later. His later Odin is one who would lie about his motives over Jane, hide his true motives over sending Thor to Earth, and hide the truth about the reality of Blake. Thomas makes him a huge jerk and every depiction since has suffered from this direction. Clearly Thomas' solution to the Odin problem was to make him a selfish an dysfunctional father. He leaned into the negative side of a patriarch. The father that is prepared to do wrong by his son in favour of security.

    That aspect of Odin was picked up strongly by Fraction, and is the character that Aaron inherited. To make him a kindly father after this would be a very big and unexplained turnabout. Aaron is rebuilding him slowly. I prefer writers to work with what they are given than to wave magic wands and make everything in canon go away. Frankly I am surprised anyone would prefer this given how much everyone here goes on and on about respecting canon.

    Yeah, but Aaron isn't famous as someone who can make a mind-shattering narrative somersault out of nowhere. That isn't his forte. If there was a great plan, we would see the seeds in the comic - or, at least, careful readers would see them. But I will not dismiss that possibility entirely. So, I am judging based on the info we have now. That is all we can do.
    Aaron over the last few years is the kind of writer that leaves things nestled in the subtext for a long time. He hasn’t always been this way but ever since W&tXM this has been a big part of his work. With Thor he has been building a long thematic narrative in which the parts all build to a whole that has yet to play out. He is building an entirely new mythology with his work on Avengers. I believe he is slowly shaping a status quo for Thor and his future. We will see when all the pieces are in place what that looks like.

    You can detect this long term plan taking shape from the very beginning of his run, and we were talking about many of the things that have since developed years before they came to fruition. Some parts of the story are still in play, like the 'Mum and Dad are Fighting' element of the story. That is clearly something that will be resolved before Aaron is through.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 10-25-2018 at 05:24 AM.

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