All New Marvel Collected Editions

[TomSlick]

I think I'm the only person who dislikes Hickman, especially his Avengers. I just find it so... dumb.

Constant repetition of silly lines like "the machine is broken," lack of any real characterization, and a complete tonal miss of what the Avengers are. And the science, ugh the science.

I thought I'd give it another go after seeing all the love on here and other boards, but I just can't get through it.

You mean like in issue # 1 when Cap and Stark sit around a computer and the conversation goes something like this:

C: you know what we got to do
S: Yeah...you know it too.
C: We've been talking about it for a long time
S: Yes...It's come down to it
C: You sure
S: Yeah I'm sure
C: We have to go....Bigger
S: Yes...Bigger

All that just to say: Hey, man, why don't we add more fucking members to the team.

(I actually liked New Avengers at the time.)

My problem with Hickman's Avengers is that with the exception of some cool conversations between Hyperion and Thor or the dickishness of Submariner, there was no characterization. Just grand plots.

I think his FF was much better.

[Brewman]

You mean like in issue # 1 when Cap and Stark sit around a computer and the conversation goes something like this:

C: you know what we got to do
S: Yeah...you know it too.
C: We've been talking about it for a long time
S: Yes...It's come down to it
C: You sure
S: Yeah I'm sure
C: We have to go....Bigger
S: Yes...Bigger

All that just to say: Hey, man, why don't we add more fucking members to the team.

(I actually liked New Avengers at the time.)

My problem with Hickman's Avengers is that with the exception of some cool conversations between Hyperion and Thor or the dickishness of Submariner, there was no characterization. Just grand plots.

I think his FF was much better.

Still not as bad as Bendis.

[mike1981]

Still not as bad as Bendis.

The saving grace of Bendis' run; even with the circular dialogue, he wasn't so obnoxious with the vauge, trying oh so hard to sound smart buzz phrases.

"The machine is broken"

"Everything dies"

Ugh.

[Dougtron]

My problem with Hickman's Avengers is that with the exception of some cool conversations between Hyperion and Thor or the dickishness of Submariner, there was no characterization. Just grand plots.

I'd agree with that to a certain extent. Avengers was the big idea, team book; it had a big grandiose plot but little characterization for the team members. New Avengers mainly focused on the Illuminati members and I thought the characterizations were pretty swell, but I could see his style not beings everyone's cup of tea. I waited until Secret Wars was over and everything was out in OHC to read it so I roughly knew where the middle and end of the story was and was able to read large chunks of it at a time. I could see someone being displeased with it if they were reading the monthlies.

I also believe that Hickman is generally someone who you really love his stuff or you can't stand it; although some have expressed being fond of FF run but not Avengers.

[DantonR]

Hickman's run is the great Avengers run since Bendis' work destroying The Avengers and then starting over w/ New Avengers.

The claim that there is no characterization is simply not true.

I mean, I'm not going to waste a whole lot of time here but, just as one example, the series spent an entire issue fleshing out the new Smasher.

Beyond that: Thor, Hyperion, Roberto, Doom (of course, it's Hickman's Doom), Namor/Panther, Starbrand/ Nightmask, Strange's obsessive quest for more power, and yes Cap, Tony, and Reed (though Cap/Reed blossoms in Time Runs Out) -- Hickman even makes room for a dick Ock Superior Spider-Man on the team in the early issues.

There are plenty of great character moments in Hickman's Avengers run. Here, plot and character complement each other very well.

[Orion]

Hickman's run is the great Avengers run since Bendis' work destroying The Avengers and then starting over w/ New Avengers.

The claim that there is no characterization is simply not true.

I mean, I'm not going to waste a whole lot of time here but, just as one example, the series spent an entire issue fleshing out the new Smasher.

Beyond that: Thor, Hyperion, Roberto, Doom (of course, it's Hickman's Doom), Namor/Panther, Starbrand/ Nightmask, Strange's obsessive quest for more power, and yes Cap, Tony, and Reed (though Cap/Reed blossoms in Time Runs Out) -- Hickman even makes room for a dick Ock Superior Spider-Man on the team in the early issues.

There are plenty of great character moments in Hickman's Avengers run. Here, plot and character complement each other very well.

Seriously...even new characters Abyss and especially Ex Nihilo had amazing character arcs. The critiques on this page have been laughable.

[Mr`Orange]

Seriously...even new characters Abyss and especially Ex Nihilo had amazing character arcs. The critiques on this page have been laughable.

Indeed.

I love Hickman's work and this has been one of the few recent Marvels books that I have read and am now going to double dip with the OHC's or omnibus editions. Fantastic run.

[legion_quest]

As much as I think it's utterly pointless to replace the OHC with an omnibus, I can't massively fault the actual work.

Read following his FF story and you have the best Doom/Reed work since Byrne, with others getting some great moments to shine (although a few, like Pod, did get lost).

I can see the criticism of it as not a particular good classic Avengers run - it's so much bigger than that - but it's a great read regardless of whether it fits it's title

[mike1981]

Seriously...even new characters Abyss and especially Ex Nihilo had amazing character arcs. The critiques on this page have been laughable.

Not laughable, just opinions that differ from yours.

I think my main problem with his Avengers is just how pretentious it all comes off.

There is a scene early on where Tony tells Steve something like "if you activate the mechanism, they will answer the call" when referring to basically calling in the team.

"Activate the mechanism", I mean come on. I just can't get past stuff like that, and it's everywhere in his run.

[ER Prest]

Not laughable, just opinions that differ from yours.

I think my main problem with his Avengers is just how pretentious it all comes off.

There is a scene early on where Tony tells Steve something like "if you activate the mechanism, they will answer the call" when referring to basically calling in the team.

"Activate the mechanism", I mean come on. I just can't get past stuff like that, and it's everywhere in his run.

I haven't read his Avengers run yet, but I agree based off reading his other work.

I like Hickman.

But his writing is cold, calculated, unnerving. The characters are chess pieces moving along with the plot of the contorting story he unfolds with each issue. There's a lot of white space, blank, empty nothingness filling the voids between character breaths and story beats. It's very pretentious. He wants you to know it's pretentious.

This doesn't necessarily mean it's bad. As I said, I like Hickman. But he definitely has a unique writing style.

[Dougtron]

I really enjoyed the fact that it was essentially one 70ish issue storyline. While lots of runs have over arching themes and plots that run through them, I'd never really read something from Marvel like Hickmans Avengers. It was almost like one big graphic novel.

[Judge Dredd]

I feel Hickman gets the same reaction to Morrison were people think he is pretentious with the science and giant story arcs that that calls back to many little things you saw earlier in the books. I love the big story feel he did well at marvel, only marvel event books I have enjoyed in a long while.

[mike1981]

I feel Hickman gets the same reaction to Morrison were people think he is pretentious with the science and giant story arcs that that calls back to many little things you saw earlier in the books. I love the big story feel he did well at marvel, only marvel event books I have enjoyed in a long while.

I love Morrison. His ideas are interesting and alive. Morrison lacks the pretension because he totally sells his ideas, which are actually weird and complex. Hickman dresses up simple ideas with first year engineering terminology and tries to sell it as brilliant.

New X-Men is one of my favorite books ever.

[Judge Dredd]

I love Morrison. His ideas are interesting and alive.

New X-Men is one of my favorite books ever.

Well for Morrison the reason ideas are alive with him is due to his not fully planning everything out and expanding ideas as he goes.

This is Hickman's first outline for his Fantastic Four run, looks like he sets a plan in place and then sticks to it. I am sure he does little tweaks, but overall he seems to have a pretty tight plan right from the get go. Probably why you do not get the same feeling as you do with Morrison.

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[Orion]

"Hickman is too cold and calculating" is such a lazy criticism bereft of original thought. It's also absurd when held against his actual work. His Fantastic Four has more heart and emotion than any recent superhero yarn from the big two.