Is the fear of certain perceived negative consequences holding back female villians?

[Punisher007]

More than ONE, in a pretty poorly-received storyline. And who's never been used/mentioned again since that, and certainly not in any major capacity.

That falls under the "lack of sustained push" part of this whole problem.

[Punisher007]

I know.
I'm not saying we never have a female villain face off against a male hero.
Besides, it's Bendis. Aside from generally doing his own thing in the books he writes, he's pretty good with portraying minorities.
Mind you, female villains for rich playboy heroes is another trope entirely. We'll have to see how it plays out.

Plus I'm not even sure 100% that she'll end up being the main villain, now that spoilers:

Doctor Doom

end of spoilers is involved.

[616MarvelYear is LeapYear]

Thor versus Hela?

Terrific action sequences!!!

[The Overlord]

It's a tough balancing act. On one level you're stating that women are equally a threat as men... on the other you state it's ok for men to fight women. There's an ingrained sense of 'that's just WRONG' whenever we see or hear about a woman who gets hit by a man. It doesn't matter what the situation is. who started what. What the history is... it's just seen as wrong. There were very few people defending Ray Rice when the video came out of him knocking his fiancée out... even when the video showed her hitting him first and then lunging at him.

He was the bigger stronger man... and should have NEVER reacted that way.

So yeah, I can't really blame Marvel or DC for not wanting to open THAT can of worms.



On a separate note, there is also an ingrained sense that society LOOKS for things to be offended about. If women aren't quality vilains... then people will complain. If they ARE quality villains, then why is it that XXXX portratys a strong woman in a horrible light.

I remember when Iron Man 3 came out, and every mention of Mandarin was how he was such a horrible example of 'yellow scare' bigotry. He was a shinning example of how the industry and society painted Asians in a horrible light and everyone was curious how Marvel would portray him... which turned out to be Ben Kingsley in the part...

Problem is, that may have been how Mandarin was CREATED... but he hasn't been that way in DECADES. Mandarin was POWERFUL guy with awesome weapons who was Iron Man's number one enemy... who just HAPPENS to be Asian. Instead of saying 'Hey cool look at the Asian character who is a match for IM.... we got 'Oh look an Asian guy, of COURSE he's the BAD guy!!!'

It's all a matter of perception.

Eh, Mandarin is not a great villain period, his ethic stereotype origins are not his only problem. The writers seem to change his personality all the time, Knauf Mandarin and Fraction Mandarin don't seem like the same guy. Why does Mandarin want to take over the world? Why does he hate Tony Stark? What makes his rivalry with Stark compelling? Has Mandarin ever done anything Stark to make Stark hate or respect him more then any other villain? Does stark feel anything towards the Mandarin that is different then what he feels towards other villains or does Stark just regard Mandarin as another in a long line of threats to deal with, with there being no compelling rivalry between the two?

I don't think we have gotten good answers to these questions and when we do get some answers, they are contradicted by the next writer. Mandarin usually just comes across as a stock villain who does villainous things because the comic needs someone for Iron Man to punch, he is an archetype, not a character, the writers hardly ever scratch below the archetype with him. I would go to bat for Mandarin if he was interesting, but he rarely is, so that and his stereotypical origins make him a hard villain to care for.

[t hedge coke]

Eh, Mandarin is not a great villain period, his ethic stereotype origins are not his only problem. The writers seem to change his personality all the time, Knauf Mandarin and Fraction Mandarin don't seem like the same guy. Why does Mandarin want to take over the world? Why does he hate Tony Stark? What makes his rivalry with Stark compelling? Has Mandarin ever done anything Stark to make Stark hate or respect him more then any other villain? Does stark feel anything towards the Mandarin that is different then what he feels towards other villains or does Stark just regard Mandarin as another in a long line of threats to deal with, with there being no compelling rivalry between the two?

I don't think we have gotten good answers to these questions and when we do get some answers, they are contradicted by the next writer. Mandarin usually just comes across as a stock villain who does villainous things because the comic needs someone for Iron Man to punch, he is an archetype, not a character, the writers hardly ever scratch below the archetype with him. I would go to bat for Mandarin if he was interesting, but he rarely is, so that and his stereotypical origins make him a hard villain to care for.

For my money, the best comics Mandarin was in Heroes Reborn, where he was... Doom. Doom using orientalism and paranoia to distract people with a scary foreigny terrorist light show. (That Iron Man run also had the scariest Hydra ever.)

[Mauled]

Heck, Morrison made Talia the biggest bat-villain he could and she's always been a villain, she was killing people like two or three appearances in and constantly complicit with her family crime empire, and... fanboys freaked the hell out.

"She's not reeaaaaallllly bad! She just kills, uses people, steals, trades in slaves and chemical weapons! She helped Batman one time, by carrying him a little bit, so they could kiss! And she fought another villain once!"

There's a special, and way too common, kind of fanboy who can't accept that a woman who dos the same crimes as a man is a criminal, she's just a badgirl or misunderstood, or she had to do those things because what else can a beautiful woman in a skintight costume do with her life except steal or murder?

I was gut-punched by Bendis upping Mystique's evil game, the last few years, but he was right to do it. She's a villain. She's a good villain. And, it's good for us to be reminded once in awhile that this is not a nice person who sometimes does the wrong thing.

Black Cat is not a killer so it doesn't really apply to her.

Hell you want killers, well Wolverine is considered a hero and IS a Killer.

[Mauled]

I don't think Black Cat is a good person, no. She's a fun person, probably, and she might be a good friend when things are going well for her. And, there are times where she could transition to being a better person, go straight, be responsible, but I imagine she's burned anybody close to her, at this point.

She's better, as a human being, than Mystique or Talia, or Kingpin, or Magneto, but she's not stealing and dealing to get by. She's not hurting people to survive. She gets off on it and she profits from hurting people, rarely physically (though, not that rarely), but financially and in terms of security?

Black Cats not a hero but an anti-hero though, that's the point of the character. So she's not going to be a total saint, that's the point. Yeah she's a cat burglar that steals priceless antiques etc, she does end up doing the right thing, like the time she helped out MJ (a love rival) without thought of reward.
She was also one of the heros for hire.

You have to be careful what you call good and bad too. Spidey after Uncle Bens death didn't automatically become a hero but went back to the wrestling promotion but was unable to cash his cheques and who fired him because if the bad publicity due to bad press. He then went to the F4 looking for a job but left annoyed because they didn't take money.

Also think of Daredevil and Batman, they go around beating people up because of the anger they feel over there parents deaths and iv already mentioned Wolverine and him being a killer.

[Mauled]

Heck, we've also seen as much with Black Cat's recent Heel Turn. She's vowed vengeance on Spider-Man but since that initial arc, she's become Silk's arch-villain.

It's also one of the worst heel turns put to paper and completely misses the whole point of the character.

[t hedge coke]

Black Cat is not a killer so it doesn't really apply to her.

Hell you want killers, well Wolverine is considered a hero and IS a Killer.

Black Cat being a villain doesn't apply because she's not a killer?

There are more crimes than just murderer.

And, sorry, but Wolverine isn't a murderer. Even the X-Force stuff wasn't that.

When, since Wolverine has joined the X-Men, has he killed someone that wasn't presenting a direct and clear threat to the safety of loads of people or in the heat of the moment with someone who has a long, long history of horrible things?

Black Cats not a hero but an anti-hero though, that's the point of the character. So she's not going to be a total saint, that's the point. Yeah she's a cat burglar that steals priceless antiques etc, she does end up doing the right thing, like the time she helped out MJ (a love rival) without thought of reward.
She was also one of the heros for hire.

You have to be careful what you call good and bad too. Spidey after Uncle Bens death didn't automatically become a hero but went back to the wrestling promotion but was unable to cash his cheques and who fired him because if the bad publicity due to bad press. He then went to the F4 looking for a job but left annoyed because they didn't take money.

Also think of Daredevil and Batman, they go around beating people up because of the anger they feel over there parents deaths and iv already mentioned Wolverine and him being a killer.

You think I'm going to argue that Wolverine and Daredevil don't have some aggression issues?

Black Cat is a thief. That's her primary thing. She's a thief. And, when she feels low about herself, traditionally, she hurts people. Physically or otherwise. This is an established history with her and it's her current status as well.

She can, also, be a really nice, fun person, as long as she's got all the money she wants and things are going her way.

That's not because she's an anti-hero. She's never been an anti-hero. Robbing people but sometimes stopping another crime because they got into your territory or you're sweet on a superhero isn't "anti-hero," that's just villain who's trying to impress somebody. She's not a completely horrible human being. She does nice things for certain people, on certain occasions, because they're her friends or because she cares. She's human. But she's also a career and unrepentant criminal.

I like Black Cat. I like her as a villain. I like her when she's trying to be a hero. But, can anyone remember a time when she didn't steal at all and made restitution for her crimes and didn't continue to profit from them?

We forgive Daredevil punching bar patrons or Wolverine getting in someone's face because they're usually doing so to the end of saving a life or stopping a violent crime. Black Cat stealing things or attacking innocent people does not aid her in stopping a violent crime.

I don't particularly like her current shift, but it's not completely out of character and it is the situation with which we have to deal now.

[ian0delond]

Black Cat is not a killer so it doesn't really apply to her.

Hell you want killers, well Wolverine is considered a hero and IS a Killer.

Recently Black Cat did kill someone in Silk.

[Mauled]

Recently Black Cat did kill someone in Silk.

Not including the recent crappy heel turn

[Mauled]

Black Cat being a villain doesn't apply because she's not a killer?

There are more crimes than just murderer.

And, sorry, but Wolverine isn't a murderer. Even the X-Force stuff wasn't that.

When, since Wolverine has joined the X-Men, has he killed someone that wasn't presenting a direct and clear threat to the safety of loads of people or in the heat of the moment with someone who has a long, long history of horrible things?



You think I'm going to argue that Wolverine and Daredevil don't have some aggression issues?

Black Cat is a thief. That's her primary thing. She's a thief. And, when she feels low about herself, traditionally, she hurts people. Physically or otherwise. This is an established history with her and it's her current status as well.

She can, also, be a really nice, fun person, as long as she's got all the money she wants and things are going her way.

That's not because she's an anti-hero. She's never been an anti-hero. Robbing people but sometimes stopping another crime because they got into your territory or you're sweet on a superhero isn't "anti-hero," that's just villain who's trying to impress somebody. She's not a completely horrible human being. She does nice things for certain people, on certain occasions, because they're her friends or because she cares. She's human. But she's also a career and unrepentant criminal.

I like Black Cat. I like her as a villain. I like her when she's trying to be a hero. But, can anyone remember a time when she didn't steal at all and made restitution for her crimes and didn't continue to profit from them?

We forgive Daredevil punching bar patrons or Wolverine getting in someone's face because they're usually doing so to the end of saving a life or stopping a violent crime. Black Cat stealing things or attacking innocent people does not aid her in stopping a violent crime.

I don't particularly like her current shift, but it's not completely out of character and it is the situation with which we have to deal now.

No she does not. Iv been reading old issues lately and that's simpy not true.

As for Wolverine he's a killer with a beserker rage. He kills people or attempts to in combat. He may not like it but he has done. How can you argue otherwise ?

[t hedge coke]

No she does not. Iv been reading old issues lately and that's simpy not true.

As for Wolverine he's a killer with a beserker rage. He kills people or attempts to in combat. He may not like it but he has done. How can you argue otherwise ?

Does not what? Steal things? Lie? Get into fights with people because she's feeling slighted or crapped on by the world? Be nice to people sometimes because it's the nice thing to do? Not be a villain all the time? Be a villain?

And, really, we're going to say killing someone who's actively trying to harm people or kill them is the same as murder?

[Mauled]

Does not what? Steal things? Lie? Get into fights with people because she's feeling slighted or crapped on by the world? Be nice to people sometimes because it's the nice thing to do? Not be a villain all the time? Be a villain?

And, really, we're going to say killing someone who's actively trying to harm people or kill them is the same as murder?

She never did hurt people because she felt bad though. Like I said I'm reading old issues and she's not like you say.She's certainly not a hero but she's not a villain either.
It's called being a character flaws and all. She's an anti-hero who leans towards doing good as opposed to say Harley who leans towards bad.
You also ignore the times Felicia has helped people out (including a love rival) just to do the right thing.

And are you seriously saying that killing people is not as bad as lying etc. particuarly by a guy with metal claws and a self healing body!

[Agent Z]

Black Cat being a villain doesn't apply because she's not a killer?

There are more crimes than just murderer.

And, sorry, but Wolverine isn't a murderer. Even the X-Force stuff wasn't that.

When, since Wolverine has joined the X-Men, has he killed someone that wasn't presenting a direct and clear threat to the safety of loads of people or in the heat of the moment with someone who has a long, long history of horrible things?



You think I'm going to argue that Wolverine and Daredevil don't have some aggression issues?

Black Cat is a thief. That's her primary thing. She's a thief. And, when she feels low about herself, traditionally, she hurts people. Physically or otherwise. This is an established history with her and it's her current status as well.

She can, also, be a really nice, fun person, as long as she's got all the money she wants and things are going her way.

That's not because she's an anti-hero. She's never been an anti-hero. Robbing people but sometimes stopping another crime because they got into your territory or you're sweet on a superhero isn't "anti-hero," that's just villain who's trying to impress somebody. She's not a completely horrible human being. She does nice things for certain people, on certain occasions, because they're her friends or because she cares. She's human. But she's also a career and unrepentant criminal.

I like Black Cat. I like her as a villain. I like her when she's trying to be a hero. But, can anyone remember a time when she didn't steal at all and made restitution for her crimes and didn't continue to profit from them?

We forgive Daredevil punching bar patrons or Wolverine getting in someone's face because they're usually doing so to the end of saving a life or stopping a violent crime. Black Cat stealing things or attacking innocent people does not aid her in stopping a violent crime.

I don't particularly like her current shift, but it's not completely out of character and it is the situation with which we have to deal now.

What about that time in the 90s to the 2000s where she'd stopped stealing and was running a detective agency?