DC Hardcover Collected Editions Part 3

[Noxex]

The vitriolic language used by critics of Identity Crisis shows that their only real points of criticism are that they don't want their superhero comics to be dark/grwon up/mirroring reality or/and that this is not "their" Batman/Elongated Man etc. - whatever that means. Everything else they mention is just there to try to justify their dislike. Kind of reminds me of the people who call Man of Steel a bad film because it's not "their" Superman (as if the Reeve/Donner interpretation was the first and only one).

And the funny thing is, that you don't find this kind of exuberant language on side of those who like IC. I've yet to read someone prasing it for being the greatest superhero book of all time. Everyone here who likes it only says it's "great" or "loved it" without venturing into the territory of hyperbole.

I think that's a little bit of a strawman when it comes to this particular thread. I think we're being level headed about it. Comics can and should feature all kinds of stories. What makes mainstream DCU comics different from other comics is a sense of fun, adventure, and craziness that IC is a 180 from. If "Watchmen", DKR and "Killing Joke" had never been published, maybe IC would be viewed differently? But I also kind of feel its flawed on basic storytelling level: its a mystery that doesn't play fair with its own rules.

There is no one "correct" version of the JLA, and that's a big strength of DC. If Identity Crisis wasn't an "event" that lead into even worse events like "Infinite Crisis" it would just be something that I could ignore. Its just not a transcending masterwork that rises above its problems, like say "Watchmen." To me "dark" stories from DC rarely work. They have to go waaaaay over the top for me to like them, which explains my strange love of Injustice!

[LordJulius]

I'd hardly call "embarrassed" for comics or "piss poor" being level headed about it.

I also still don't know what the big flaw in revealing the mystery is. Apart from it not being even close to a deus ex machina, it made perfect sense to me in the context of the story.

But in general, your post only confirms what I said above: your problem with Identity Crisis and Infinite Crisis seems to be that they are too dark for your taste (which is fine). It would otherwise also not make sense to single out these stories for (assumed) flaws in plot, when there are so many non-dark DC stories that really insult one's intelligence when one takes a closer look at them.

When it comes to "dark" DC stories, IC was also not the first and only one. Not even Watchmen or DKR were (stories that are non-canonical anyway, like Elseworlds). In the main DC universe we had already had Swamp Thing, Animal Man (Morrison), Azrael (after Batman's death), CoIE, Moore's For the Man Who Has Everything, etc. Heck, even O'Neill/Adams Batman and GL/GA from the 70s were pretty gritty and dark - a far cry from the "sense of fun, adventure and craziness" you believe DC comics to stand for.

I'd also like you to point out a DC mainstream superhero mystery story that achieves its goal better. I don't think you will find many examples, if at all (btw, nobody here would declare IC a "masterwork" on the same level as Watchmen).

[FlashingSabre]

The vitriolic language used by critics of Identity Crisis shows that their only real points of criticism are that they don't want their superhero comics to be dark/grwon up/mirroring reality or/and that this is not "their" Batman/Elongated Man etc. - whatever that means. Everything else they mention is just there to try to justify their dislike. Kind of reminds me of the people who call Man of Steel a bad film because it's not "their" Superman (as if the Reeve/Donner interpretation was the first and only one).

And the funny thing is, that you don't find this kind of exuberant language on side of those who like IC. I've yet to read someone prasing it for being the greatest superhero book of all time. Everyone here who likes it only says it's "great" or "loved it" without venturing into the territory of hyperbole.

That's completely false, and the fact that you dismiss all criticisms so easily shows that you're more close minded than the people complaining about it.

And yes MoS was an objectively bad movie. There are professional film critics with many valid complains, even discounting all of the well though and spoken fan criticisms.

[FlashingSabre]

I'd hardly call "embarrassed" for comics or "piss poor" being level headed about it.

I also still don't know what the big flaw in revealing the mystery is. Apart from it not being even close to a deus ex machina, it made perfect sense to me in the context of the story.

But in general, your post only confirms what I said above: your problem with Identity Crisis and Infinite Crisis seems to be that they are too dark for your taste (which is fine). It would otherwise also not make sense to single out these stories for (assumed) flaws in plot, when there are so many non-dark DC stories that really insult one's intelligence when one takes a closer look at them.

When it comes to "dark" DC stories, IC was also not the first and only one. Not even Watchmen or DKR were (stories that are non-canonical anyway, like Elseworlds). In the main DC universe we had already had Swamp Thing, Animal Man (Morrison), Azrael (after Batman's death), CoIE, Moore's For the Man Who Has Everything, etc. Heck, even O'Neill/Adams Batman and GL/GA from the 70s were pretty gritty and dark - a far cry from the "sense of fun, adventure and craziness" you believe DC comics to stand for.

I'd also like you to point out a DC mainstream superhero mystery story that achieves its goal better. I don't think you will find many examples, if at all (btw, nobody here would declare IC a "masterwork" on the same level as Watchmen).

I want to avoid spoilers, but the killers Identity blatantly contradicts evens shown in story. You cannot call that a well written reveal.

[victorxd1999]

Guys, shall we cease the discussion? IC was and will probably always be a polarizing story, it seems a bit wasted to spend so much energy into a discussion that's going nowhere.

[LordJulius]

That's completely false, and the fact that you dismiss all criticisms so easily shows that you're more close minded than the people complaining about it.

And yes MoS was an objectively bad movie. There are professional film critics with many valid complains, even discounting all of the well though and spoken fan criticisms.

Feel free to point out where I called people "close minded" or even insinuated this. What I'm referring to is the totally over the top emotional response that almost every critic of IC displays. You don't show such a reaction if the problem is just a not well-executed story (of which, and I repeat myself here, there are more than enough examples in superhero comics). However, you DO respond like that if you think that somebody is screwing around with characters and a universe you've come to love.

It's often the case that one hates something for some reason and then keeps looking for more reasons or flaws that one can use to hate it - reasons one on the other hand is easily inclined to overlook in things one likes.

[Dick Grayson]

Guys, shall we cease the discussion? IC was and will probably always be a polarizing story, it seems a bit wasted to spend so much energy into a discussion that's going nowhere.

Agreed. No one who hates it is going to sway the opinion of those who love it, or vice versa.

[LordJulius]

Agreed. No one who hates it is going to sway the opinion of those who love it, or vice versa.

Maybe not, but the whole discussion began with someone who hadn't read IC and was deciding on getting it (and I don't think he's the only one). Depicting IC as the "Superman IV" of superhero comics is imo a gross misrepresentation, which seems more often than not to be based on personal preferences rather than factual criticism.

Anyway, moving on...

[FlashingSabre]

Guys, shall we cease the discussion? IC was and will probably always be a polarizing story, it seems a bit wasted to spend so much energy into a discussion that's going nowhere.

Yeah, I'm done. I just don't like people dismissing others opinions without reason.

[JJ87]

I have an Absolute New Frontier, and was thinking of downgrading to the deluxe version. But I'm worried about the binding. Is it like the one for CoIE pictured a couple of pages back? Are pages prone to fall off?

Incidentally, I was waiting for the deluxe CoIE instead of hunting the Absolute, but if the ribbon is glued to the spine I might be better off looking for the format where the art is easier to appreciate in full.

[Dayle88]

Maybe not, but the whole discussion began with someone who hadn't read IC and was deciding on getting it (and I don't think he's the only one). Depicting IC as the "Superman IV" of superhero comics is imo a gross misrepresentation, which seems more often than not to be based on personal preferences rather than factual criticism.

Anyway, moving on...

It should be arriving tomorrow or the day after, I'll post my thoughts in the DC board now this one has moved on ha ha

[pud333]

The vitriolic language used by critics of Identity Crisis shows that their only real points of criticism are that they don't want their superhero comics to be dark/grwon up/mirroring reality or/and that this is not "their" Batman/Elongated Man etc. - whatever that means. Everything else they mention is just there to try to justify their dislike. Kind of reminds me of the people who call Man of Steel a bad film because it's not "their" Superman (as if the Reeve/Donner interpretation was the first and only one).

Yeah I never understood why people get so upset over something like a new adaptation. Because that's what it is. If it's not your ideal version of a character, so what? Your version probably exists in another medium, and you'll always have that. Donner's Superman will always be there. So will Waid's Superman, or Morrison's Superman, etc. I always try to approach something as just that: a new version that should stand on its own merits. For what it was, I thought IC was great. The best story ever? Heck no. But I enjoyed the crap out of it, the way I enjoyed the crap out of MoS, Nolan's Dark Knight trilogy, etc.

I don't agree with the last statement. I think comics as a medium has risen above the juvenility and it has given rise to many works that I would consider on the same level as classic literature. Of course Dc and Marvel still have that juvenile sense of maturity sometimes but works like Hawkworld, Longbow Hunters, Batman Year One and a lot of other works can not rightly be called juvenile imo.

Sure they can. It's all just a matter of opinion. Have comics "grown up?" Yes of course. They're definitely not written for children anymore. Especially a lot of the creator owned stuff which has been amazing over the years. Personally, I would never put any comic at the level of classic literature. Maybe some of Morrison's stuff comes close.

Okay, I'm done now. Off to read some Outcast (which is good, but not Waking Dead good.)

[TomSlick]

It should be arriving tomorrow or the day after, I'll post my thoughts in the DC board now this one has moved on ha ha

Let us know how you liked it, since you started this mess. LOL. Kidding. But let us know.

Sure they can. It's all just a matter of opinion. Have comics "grown up?" Yes of course. They're definitely not written for children anymore. Especially a lot of the creator owned stuff which has been amazing over the years. Personally, I would never put any comic at the level of classic literature. Maybe some of Morrison's stuff comes close.

Like what? Seriously.
Moore's Watchmen? Gaiman's Sandman? Yeah, probably. They transcended the genre and are practically a part of pop culture. One of the Sandman comics was the first comic to win the World Fantasy Award (I believe that was the award). And they're New York Times Bestselling books.

On a side note, I'm not picking on you. I agreed with all the other stuff you said, particularly having the ability to separate new adaptations from older once.

[Hellboydce]

I have an Absolute New Frontier, and was thinking of downgrading to the deluxe version. But I'm worried about the binding. Is it like the one for CoIE pictured a couple of pages back? Are pages prone to fall off?

Incidentally, I was waiting for the deluxe CoIE instead of hunting the Absolute, but if the ribbon is glued to the spine I might be better off looking for the format where the art is easier to appreciate in full.

I wouldn't, I had the deluxe and the paper quality was piss poor, I love NF but I was so disappointed in the deluxe I went and got the Absolute, which started me down the road of buying absolutes after seeing how much better the quality is than the often poor deluxes DC are putting out

[pud333]

Let us know how you liked it, since you started this mess. LOL. Kidding. But let us know.



Like what? Seriously.
Moore's Watchmen? Gaiman's Sandman? Yeah, probably. They transcended the genre and are practically a part of pop culture. One of the Sandman comics was the first comic to win the World Fantasy Award (I believe that was the award). And they're New York Times Bestselling books.

On a side note, I'm not picking on you. I agreed with all the other stuff you said, particularly having the ability to separate new adaptations from older once.

I don't know honestly. I just threw it out there to say something. I hated Watchmen. So yeah. There's that. I'm strange like that. Haha