Pre-Crisis Karate Kid vs Bills

[abmccray]

And he made it LARGER as well, so that the mass was hard to deflect.

It also shows that they consciously avoid making blasts that will blow up the planet or aim them away from the planet (ie. lateral) constantly during their other fights. Majiin Buu wanted to eat and have fun and not blow up everything and Super Buu wanted to fight strong people, so both avoided blowing up the planet even though they were equal to or greater than Kid Buu. Kid Buu, on the other hand, who didn't care at all, immediately just tossed off a blast specifically meant to explode what it hit on impact.

I also wouldn't make SSJ Vegeta 1 at the minimum end. You have Piccolo who is probably ~Imperfect Cell level at that time roaming around as well. Android 18 probably has the raw power, but neither android showed much when it came to technique.

[Hazard]

Can we honestly say that in some cases, charge time in the anime is filler? It's like Sailor Moon. In the anime her attacks are flashy and showy. In the manga it's point and shoot.

Kind of.

Plenty of the myths surrounding DB come from the anime. Stuff like people taking forever to power up and blasts needing tons of charge time as well as the battles taking forever.

People often miss that DB is a pretty fast paced manga.

[Aura Blaize]

Kind of.

Plenty of the myths surrounding DB come from the anime. Stuff like people taking forever to power up and blasts needing tons of charge time as well as the battles taking forever.

People often miss that DB is a pretty fast paced manga.

One thing I've noticed. After he unlocks it, if Goku has to power up just to go to SSJ1 (Like he did in the otherworld tournament) chances are it's filler.

Some fights do drag on, but again, that's Anime only. I believe even his Warp Kamehame against Cell didn't take that long to charge.

[Cody]

One thing I've noticed. After he unlocks it, if Goku has to power up just to go to SSJ1 (Like he did in the otherworld tournament) chances are it's filler.

Some fights do drag on, but again, that's Anime only. I believe even his Warp Kamehame against Cell didn't take that long to charge.

Pretty much the only time that a fight is prolonged with filler, and actually makes it more impressive in terms of speed; is the fight between Goku and Frieza. Seriously, to have what appears to be a long extended fight that feels like hours have gone by to them, actually happen in under 5 minutes? That is some monstrous speed.

I see them taking a while to charge up and such as happening in fast time, being no more slower or faster than what happens in the manga.

[Surtur]

I think that when the god that is in charge of creating that universe nonchalantly says that another guy who he's been hanging out with for millennia can do something, we can kind of take him at his word. There are limits to the "we need to see something on screen" here.

We only do this if we have supporting feats, but we don't. It doesn't matter what you label the guy, feats are what matter. If people are going to use statements, they then need supporting feats..instead of just saying "nothing contradicts it".

That is more or less what it boils down to with DBZ. They can frankly say whatever the heck they want to say about each others power levels, they need some feats to back up the things they say though if you are going to try to use those statements as any form of evidence.

It is less about trusting or not trusting the word of some character and more about what my math teacher always used to say to me: show your work. Statements aren't bad things, of course, but there is a time and a place for them. We kind of need some supporting feats to take certain statements(that show GIGANTIC LEAPS in power) at face value.

[Anarchist]

I second this.
We also don't grant Blue Marvel moonbuster status simply because The Watcher says so.

And Watchmen is a very good comparism imO.
It was also written by one single author with a specific intent, but I've never seen people granting Doc Manhattan enough durability to withstand the heat of the sun.
Unless we do something like that universally, I'm not willing to give DBZ a special treatment.

[Aura Blaize]

We only do this if we have supporting feats, but we don't. It doesn't matter what you label the guy, feats are what matter. If people are going to use statements, they then need supporting feats..instead of just saying "nothing contradicts it".

That is more or less what it boils down to with DBZ. They can frankly say whatever the heck they want to say about each others power levels, they need some feats to back up the things they say though if you are going to try to use those statements as any form of evidence.

Bills is the god of destruction. He's tasked with destroying planets and such. He smacked around the strongest character in the series like it was nothing. Then said character became a god and he still beat him. Whis is his teacher and he states that he's stronger than him, which is kind of shown by him knocking Bills out at the end of the movie. What exactly are we disputing? Serious question BTW. I can understand if he said he could destroy the galaxy in an instant, but from what I recall, he didn't really make any claims that were out there. Granted, it's been awhile since I saw the movie.

[Cody]

I second this.
We also don't grant Blue Marvel moonbuster status simply because The Watcher says so.

And Watchmen is a very good comparism imO.
It was also written by one single author with a specific intent, but I've never seen people granting Doc Manhattan enough durability to withstand the heat of the sun.
Unless we do something like that universally, I'm not willing to give DBZ a special treatment.

Manhattan never fought anyone near his level. Thus making his feats questionable due to not ever having to really use them.

The DBZ chars do. All the time.

I can understand if he said he could destroy the galaxy in an instant, but from what I recall, he didn't really make any claims that were out there. Granted, it's been awhile since I saw the movie.

He stated that Bills could wipe out the entire solar system in an instant if he wanted to. Whether that means he could bust the star and the energies released from it would do the job or otherwise is up in the air.

[Hazard]

One thing I've noticed. After he unlocks it, if Goku has to power up just to go to SSJ1 (Like he did in the otherworld tournament) chances are it's filler.

Some fights do drag on, but again, that's Anime only. I believe even his Warp Kamehame against Cell didn't take that long to charge.

Pretty much. Even the first SSJ was pretty fast.

Hell, even SSJ3 was fast after the first one when he was deliberately making time.

As for the Cell one, that one took time, but that was also deliberate, since Goku was trying to psych out Cell.

Edit: Also, Manhattan never destroyed multiple planets because his food was too spicy.

[Surtur]

Bills is the god of destruction.

This means nothing in the DBZ universe. I'm being serious here: these people at one time called Kami a frickin God, saying Bills is a God doesn't really do much for him.

He's tasked with destroying planets and such. He smacked around the strongest character in the series like it was nothing. Then said character became a god and he still beat him. Whis is his teacher and he states that he's stronger than him, which is kind of shown by him knocking Bills out at the end of the movie. What exactly are we disputing? Serious question BTW. I can understand if he said he could destroy the galaxy in an instant, but from what I recall, he didn't really make any claims that were out there. Granted, it's been awhile since I saw the movie.

I was disputing that he was a galaxy/solar system buster. That is all, more or less. There is no dispute that he is far above most DBZ characters, but not to an actual cosmic level which some people seem to believe. They aren't taking out solar systems of galaxies in one shot.

[Cody]

This means nothing in the DBZ universe. I'm being serious here: these people at one time called Kami a frickin God, saying Bills is a God doesn't really do much for him.

Difference being is that it was the characters that called Kami god. The writer and the movie title are calling Bills and Whiss gods.

I was disputing that he was a galaxy/solar system buster. That is all, more or less. There is no dispute that he is far above most DBZ characters, but not to an actual cosmic level which some people seem to believe. They aren't taking out solar systems of galaxies in one shot.

Yea, a galaxy is out there unless it is the "Aniverse". At most Bills could be Solar System Buster. Even that is highly debatable as it is still kind of out there. I don't even buy official releases that state Cell is a SS buster himself because it is so above and beyond everything prior to that it isn't even funny.

A Star? I can buy Bills busting that at the very least. But not a SS buster.

Goku and Vegeta may very well be Solar System busters though many years after BoG, considering they were making stars crap themselves from the effects of their final fight. But that is many many many years after BoGs.

[Aura Blaize]

This means nothing in the DBZ universe. I'm being serious here: these people at one time called Kami a frickin God, saying Bills is a God doesn't really do much for him.

To be honest, out of all of the "gods" of DBZ, Bills is the only one that has actually acted like an actual god. Though I was referring mostly to the fact that his role is destruction when I mentioned it. Like a force of nature or something

I was disputing that he was a galaxy/solar system buster. That is all, more or less. There is no dispute that he is far above most DBZ characters, but not to an actual cosmic level which some people seem to believe. They aren't taking out solar systems of galaxies in one shot.

Ah. I see. Yeah, actually I agree with that. I can see him destroying a solar system, but definitely not in one shot. For all we know, he COULD be at that level, but we haven't seen it yet.

[Anarchist]

I guess we really rolled a little OT here.
Maybe we can discuss it further in the recently opened DBZ-thread and get back to Bills vs Val.

[Daenarys Stormborn]

And he made it LARGER as well, so that the mass was hard to deflect.

It also shows that they consciously avoid making blasts that will blow up the planet or aim them away from the planet (ie. lateral) constantly during their other fights. Majiin Buu wanted to eat and have fun and not blow up everything and Super Buu wanted to fight strong people, so both avoided blowing up the planet even though they were equal to or greater than Kid Buu. Kid Buu, on the other hand, who didn't care at all, immediately just tossed off a blast specifically meant to explode what it hit on impact.

I also wouldn't make SSJ Vegeta 1 at the minimum end. You have Piccolo who is probably ~Imperfect Cell level at that time roaming around as well. Android 18 probably has the raw power, but neither android showed much when it came to technique.

Kid Buu wasn't exactly one to hold back. Regardless, the blast he tossed off was still at the level that Vegeta needed to fire what looked like Gallick Gun to deflect it. Vegeta didn't call out the name or anything, but it's the same form.

AND the big thing... I just looked at my volume 42 of the manga. I actually don't think it was SSJ, and in fact SSJ2.
-I know a lot of people make a big deal about ssj2 art looking slightly different than SSJ2 art. However, the context doesn't match Vegeta only going SSJ.
Vegeta and Goku seperated from the fusion inside buu. Shortly after they were confronted by Buu and transformed to 'blow holes in his body' and presumably defend themselves. In this situation it makes no sense to just go SSJ. They held those forms until after they were spat back out into the real world as well.
Regarding the art, I looked at the last fight where Vegeta stalls Kid Buu in the Kai area. After the initial 'Go' he mutters with the extra lines around to signify he transformed, the rest of the fight just looks like an SSJ...yet we know he is SSJ2 still pretty much due to context.

[Cody]

I guess we really rolled a little OT here.
Maybe we can discuss it further in the recently opened DBZ-thread and get back to Bills vs Val.

Yea but that topic has been finished a while ago. In a hand to hand fight with no energy projection Val takes Bills apart casually. If they start from apart, then Bills can nuke him. That's it.