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  1. #31
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Clark View Post
    Also when was the last time Krypton was a planet of geniuses? Jor-El is usually given as one and some of the Zoners were mad scientists, but is Zod really shown to be any more talented than your average military dictator or Faora/Ursa any smarter than say Lady Shiva? The claim that Kryptonians were smarter always struck me as being the same argument that people in 2015 are smarter than those in 1915 based on how complex the tech we use is.
    Actually, there are studies out there that make a very convincing argument for people in 2015 being born smarter than those in 1915. And those born in 2115 will be smarter still.

    The details are pretty vague, so I could be remembering this incorrectly, but if memory serves the basic premise of the study boils down to social evolution, cultural preferences, and educational opportunities all combining to create a human race that is incrementally more intelligent than its forebears.

    We might complain about the failing quality of our schools, but it wasnt that long ago that most of the world's population couldnt read or do basic algebra. More education means more intelligent people, as learning has been proven to increase IQ via "brain exercise". That higher IQ is passed down to our kids, who themselves enjoy a higher degree of education than we did (most likely, anyway), which increases their IQ's, and so on.

    Culturally, we have little need for big strong men to protect our women and children, and more need for intelligent men and women who can nab good jobs and provide a more wealthy, stable life style. We're breeding raw, brute strength out of the human race in favor of intellect, and that's been going on since the discovery of agriculture. With the advent of modern industry its accelerated quite a bit.

    So, going by this, I would imagine a planet like Krypton, well ahead of us in its development, would indeed be a world of genius-level people.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  2. #32
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    "Krypton, a distant planet so far advanced in evolution that tr bears a civilization of supermen -- being which represent the human race at its ultimate peak of perfect development." - Jerry Siegel, 1939

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManSinha View Post
    One way - and this has been discussed in other threads - is to amp up his intelligence - similar to his powers - and have him outclass everyone else - yes I do mean that
    No more "dumbing down" to prop up humans like Luthor and Wayne - he is the apex of Kryptonian evolution with genetics from one if not two of the most brilliant people on that planet - stop playing two sides between the physical and the mental aspects of the character
    Except if a common complaint about Superman is he is all powerful to the point that is dull and there are no good challenges, you have to be careful with making him a super genious who easily outsmarts his enemies as well. If Superman is far more intelligent then Lex, how does Lex pose any real threat to him? Also Superman is going to suffer from plot induced stupidity so Toyman can menace him for an issue or two, then what is the point of making him a super genius?

    There is a balancing act between making Superman competent and awe inspiring and still giving him good challenges to deal with. Sure you don't Superman to be a wimp or an idiot, but you also don't want him to be an all powerful Mary Sue who can never be challenged.

  4. #34
    Incredible Member Ishmael's Avatar
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    I think the OP's confusing "relevant" with "entertaining".

    Heroism has always been -- and will always be -- relevant. Superman is the heroic ideal of our culture, representative of all the virtues and character traits a hero should embody. So long as that's the case he remains relevant.

    That said, a lot of the stories about him are mediocre. Probably because he's a cash cow for DC/Warner Bros, and they protect the product by keeping a tight control over it. So no "one-handed Superman" stories ala Diggle, or truly bizarre changes to the character that can't be walked back.

    Still, good stories -- like All-Star Superman -- remain possible, which more than underscore how relevant Superman remains. As soon as people distinguish "I don't care for this story arc or creative team's run or movie" from "He's outdated", then the mistaken claim that Superman is irrelevant can be seen.

    I mean, what's so funny about truth, justice, and the American Way?
    Last edited by Ishmael; 10-19-2015 at 07:41 PM.

  5. #35
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Sure you can't chase relevance. Except Marvel does, and it kinda works, right?

    Let me first concede: I'm not about backseat creating. I have no desire or authority to suggest I know better than Pak, Romita, etc.

    And, I know that comichron =/= relevance. But just the same, Superman doesn't have a seat in the top 20. He's been beaten on the big screen by Star Lord, he has no cartoons or live action shows. Nor any videogames, never mind a hit like the Arkham series. I have no confidence that he tops Deadpool in merchandise. Maybe I'm needlessly competitive, but is this okay? Is it natural for him to hold the door for the new guys?

  6. #36
    Incredible Member victorsage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManSinha View Post
    One way - and this has been discussed in other threads - is to amp up his intelligence - similar to his powers - and have him outclass everyone else - yes I do mean that
    No more "dumbing down" to prop up humans like Luthor and Wayne - he is the apex of Kryptonian evolution with genetics from one if not two of the most brilliant people on that planet - stop playing two sides between the physical and the mental aspects of the character
    That idea would be terrible. Clark works best when he is more or less a gifted man who does what he can to protect people. Making him even more of an alien, and less human would turn him into an incredibly uninteresting character.

  7. #37
    Incredible Member Ishmael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    Sure you can't chase relevance. Except Marvel does, and it kinda works, right?

    Let me first concede: I'm not about backseat creating. I have no desire or authority to suggest I know better than Pak, Romita, etc.

    And, I know that comichron =/= relevance. But just the same, Superman doesn't have a seat in the top 20. He's been beaten on the big screen by Star Lord, he has no cartoons or live action shows. Nor any videogames, never mind a hit like the Arkham series. I have no confidence that he tops Deadpool in merchandise. Maybe I'm needlessly competitive, but is this okay? Is it natural for him to hold the door for the new guys?
    Again, I don't see what being "outsold" by other characters has to do with relevance. Superman's had moments when he's sold really well and times he didn't -- he has been around for 70 years after all. He was selling well under Morrison for the majority of that run on Action -- did that make him more relevant? Doubtful. He may not be selling as well now, but that may have less to do with relevance than the fact that people just don't care for this storyline.

  8. #38
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Overlord View Post
    Except if a common complaint about Superman is he is all powerful to the point that is dull and there are no good challenges, you have to be careful with making him a super genious who easily outsmarts his enemies as well. If Superman is far more intelligent then Lex, how does Lex pose any real threat to him? Also Superman is going to suffer from plot induced stupidity so Toyman can menace him for an issue or two, then what is the point of making him a super genius?

    There is a balancing act between making Superman competent and awe inspiring and still giving him good challenges to deal with. Sure you don't Superman to be a wimp or an idiot, but you also don't want him to be an all powerful Mary Sue who can never be challenged.
    Well, people will complain about Superman no matter what. They complain that he's too powerful even when he's outclassed by several characters like J'onn, Firestorm, and arguably Wonder Woman, Shazam, or Green Lantern (who all surpass him in raw power, number of powers, combat ability, or utility). They complained about him being too powerful during the post-Crisis era when he was only "arguably" stronger than his peers. They'll complain no matter what, but if you look at many of his most popular eras or storylines, he's incredibly powerful (All-Star, for example). Sadly, one of the drawbacks of being Superman is that every complaint about comic book characters get leveled at him, whether its deserved or not.

    Secondly, the threat of making Superman too smart for his own good is only a concern with lackluster writers who lack imagination. If Clark is super smart, that is not to say that he can't be out-maneuvered by a schemer like Lex, or not be as good at deduction as Batman. "Smart" does not equal "omnipotent". Even Toyman can pose a challenge to a super-smart Superman. If Toyman makes his devices with common, easy-to-procure materials and covers his tracks reasonably well, Superman is still going to have a hard time catching him. Being super smart doesnt mean he's able to follow the trail of household cleaners that Toyman bought to make a bomb, or find evidence that isnt there which will lead to Toyman's door.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Actually, there are studies out there that make a very convincing argument for people in 2015 being born smarter than those in 1915. And those born in 2115 will be smarter still.

    The details are pretty vague, so I could be remembering this incorrectly, but if memory serves the basic premise of the study boils down to social evolution, cultural preferences, and educational opportunities all combining to create a human race that is incrementally more intelligent than its forebears.

    We might complain about the failing quality of our schools, but it wasnt that long ago that most of the world's population couldnt read or do basic algebra. More education means more intelligent people, as learning has been proven to increase IQ via "brain exercise". That higher IQ is passed down to our kids, who themselves enjoy a higher degree of education than we did (most likely, anyway), which increases their IQ's, and so on.
    But none of that really impacts human intelligence individually. The people of 2015 have more advantages culturally to develop their intelligence but there is no evidence that if you took a random set of infants from each generation over the last 100 years and raised them in an isolated environment under the same conditions (the same educational opportunities, no new knowledge available to one group that the others didn't have) that the IQ's they had at say 25 would increase from generation to generation.

    Or in the case of Superman that is an argument that Kal-El raised on Krypton would be smarter than Clark, but not an argument that Kal-El raised on Krypton would be smarter than Luthor raised on Krypton.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Culturally, we have little need for big strong men to protect our women and children, and more need for intelligent men and women who can nab good jobs and provide a more wealthy, stable life style. We're breeding raw, brute strength out of the human race in favor of intellect, and that's been going on since the discovery of agriculture. With the advent of modern industry its accelerated quite a bit.

    So, going by this, I would imagine a planet like Krypton, well ahead of us in its development, would indeed be a world of genius-level people.
    I'd agree that the average IQ might increase this way, but I'm not sure the upper end necessarily moves. So if Lex Luthor is the upper end of possible intelligence then on Krypton you'd have more people who rivaled Lex, but no better chance of someone surpassing Lex unless there had been a mutation that increased what possible intelligence was.

  10. #40
    Astonishing Member Johnny Thunders!'s Avatar
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    For me the intelligence is part of his biology, he was raised by people that could only lift 75 pounds, but he's able to do more. He wasn't taught to lift heavy things he just can. Same with his mind, he doesn't have to be taught how to think like a Superman, he just does.

  11. #41
    Incredible Member magha_regulus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mantis Girl 94 View Post
    I agree that I wish Kal was shown smarter. But I don't know how being from Krypton or having genius parents makes it a sure thing that he will be smart.

    He was raised by Ma and Pa Kent and educated in the Kansas School system. I think he has the potential to be smarter but I don't think the way he was raised supports him being a super genius.
    He's like a person descended from pyramid architects and builders being raised by kind hearted homo habilis, its thematically similar to Tarzan being raised by apes or Mowgli being raised by wolves. Superman would seem like a wild man to other Kryptonians. The few kryptonian survivors would be both horrified by his fate and full of compassion and concern for him. They REALLY dropped the ball with Superman and Supergirl's relationship in the New 52.

  12. #42
    Incredible Member magha_regulus's Avatar
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    His intelligence it super because of his advanced kryptonian brain, they have an ability to process far more information at a far younger age than humans, especially as it relates to mathematics and the sciences. Its even shown in present continuity Jor El even made a device to artificially encourage even greater scientific inclinations among his already scientifically advanced people.

  13. #43
    Incredible Member victorsage's Avatar
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    Clark Kent's character worked considerably better when he wasn't an advanced biological computer. He was never stupid, but he also wasn't above people either in the brains department. Characters like the Ultra Humanite and Lex Luthor were the smart guys who were better then others.




    Clark's strength is his moral character, and his physical powers. He doesn't need to be some super advanced biological computer who is attempting to bring back Krypton. He acts he doesn't need to be thinking 15 moves ahead of other people. Lex schemes and plots, Clark defends. Clark is fine being smart without it going over to the point where his intelligence is just another attribute on his "super power" list.

  14. #44
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ishmael View Post
    Again, I don't see what being "outsold" by other characters has to do with relevance. Superman's had moments when he's sold really well and times he didn't -- he has been around for 70 years after all. He was selling well under Morrison for the majority of that run on Action -- did that make him more relevant? Doubtful. He may not be selling as well now, but that may have less to do with relevance than the fact that people just don't care for this storyline.
    I'm not actually saying that there is a metric for relevance, I am saying that in any case , his demand in pop culture does not seem as strong as it could be.

    On comic sales, I remember Unchained doing better than the Morrison issues. I think that was a better fit for the profile of the character.

  15. #45
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    The one thing they NEED to do is get rid of Lex Luthor as his main villain(which will never happen). It's a makes Superman look terrible. He's an ordinary human with no superpowers that continually outwits Superman and at worst gets into stalemates most of the time. The dynamic makes Superman pretty pathetic, all these powers and too stupid and ineffective to really handle Luthor. It's one of the reasons Superman Returns was terrible. Since there really was no way to have a climax of Supes vs Lex it was Superman vs.....a rock.

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