The Pre-And-Post Crisis Jason Todd discussion

[DisneyBoy]

So after years of assuming I knew all there was to know about Jason Todd - the Robin with a bad attitude who was killed off - I actually went and reread A Death in the Family for the first time in years and then started to do some research about who Jason Todd was prior to that. I had an issue from the pre-crisis era in which Jason was jealous of Catwoman's intimate relationship with Batman, but I never realized that was a different Jason than the one the Joker actually killed. And now, I have learned that that Jason was actually a blond / redhead whose parents were murdered by Killer Croc! Fascinating.

I'm interested to hear what you guys think about the two versions of Jason that we got in the eighties. Do you think they have much in common? Did you prefer the original concept of the character? Did you wish Jason's descent into rebellious territory had been more carefully plotted following the crisis?

I know that Superboy punched Jason back into existence a couple of years ago, but seeing as how that is it completely ludicrous explanation, I was wondering if we ever got a better one slightly more rooted in reality... that is a story I would enjoy reading.

I know very little about Jason since he came back as the Red Hood. Has the writing for him been strong? Do you feel it was worth bringing him back, or was it just a temporary thrill?

[John Venus]

Pre Crisis Jason Todd was meant to a Dick Grayson right down to the origin story being a copy of Dick's but with Zucco replaced by Killer Croc. I like how he had red hair but they chose to have him dye his hair black to look closer to Dick.

However, writers like Mike W Barr managed to differentiate him from Dick a bit more by making Jason more naive. It was easier for someone like Dick who spent his whole life doing gymnastics to ease into the physical side of crime fighting but Jason didn't have a good grasp of either so he was learning and Bruce did his best to teach him. There is even an issue of Titans where Donna is the leader but she is having confidence issues and starts treating Jason the same way as Dick but Jason knew nothing about leadership the same way Dick did. He did however, manage to knock some sense into Donna.

The 'bad Robin' was when Jason finally had something to truly differentiate him from Dick and by the time I got into comics, he was essentially a symbol of Bruce's failure.

[Aahz]

I think that the pre crisis Run with Jason is actually quite underrated. It's in my opinion one of the best written versions of the classic Batman and Robin relation.

Post crisis was kind of a mess, his personality was quite inconsistent at the beginning. And even his change to the "bad Robin" came very abrupt.

I think if the pre crisis writers had started with street kid Jason, the result would have been a really good character.

[DisneyBoy]

Has Jason as the Red Hood been interesting? I read somewhere that he has allowed his hair to become red again...which I thought only applied to the pre-crisis Jason...bit confused there.

[HellHere]

I know that Superboy punched Jason back into existence a couple of years ago, but seeing as how that is it completely ludicrous explanation, I was wondering if we ever got a better one slightly more rooted in reality... that is a story I would enjoy reading.

Check out Red Hood: The Lost Days. It follows him after Talia gives him a dunking in a Lazarus Pit (after he's dug himself out of his grave) and how he becomes Red Hood.

I think the story now is that Talia just grave robbed him though. (Which I ignore because digging yourself out of your grave is just so much better.)

Jason had red hair for a while, and black hair with a white stripe (where the Joker brained him) for a while. Right now he's just regular flavour black hair, blue eyed Robin design.

[Aioros22]

However, writers like Mike W Barr managed to differentiate him from Dick a bit more by making Jason more naive. It was easier for someone like Dick who spent his whole life doing gymnastics to ease into the physical side of crime fighting but Jason didn't have a good grasp of either so he was learning and Bruce did his best to teach him. There is even an issue of Titans where Donna is the leader but she is having confidence issues and starts treating Jason the same way as Dick but Jason knew nothing about leadership the same way Dick did. He did however, manage to knock some sense into Donna.

Barr`s Jason was post crisis Jason, not pre. Likewise for the time Jason was a member of Donna`s Titans.

[DisneyBoy]

Check out Red Hood: The Lost Days. It follows him after Talia gives him a dunking in a Lazarus Pit (after he's dug himself out of his grave) and how he becomes Red Hood.

I think the story now is that Talia just grave robbed him though. (Which I ignore because digging yourself out of your grave is just so much better.)

Sure...but the cosmic space punch is ridiculous, so...I'll opt for the bath explanation. Talia's such a caregiver! Awwwww

I think that the pre crisis Run with Jason is actually quite underrated. It's in my opinion one of the best written versions of the classic Batman and Robin relation.

And that's Jason in "For The Man Who Has Everything", right? Pretty cool. So do you think you could read a Pre-Crisis Jason story and a Post-Crisis Jason story and not really know it's two different continuities? Like if you picked up two issues randomly?

I've read somewhere that Nocturna was a supporting character before the Crisis and a sort of surrogate mother to Jason. How the heck did he end up with a vampire lady as his surrogate Mom?

[ngroove]

Sure...but the cosmic space punch is ridiculous, so...I'll opt for the bath explanation. Talia's such a caregiver! Awwwww



And that's Jason in "For The Man Who Has Everything", right? Pretty cool. So do you think you could read a Pre-Crisis Jason story and a Post-Crisis Jason story and not really know it's two different continuities? Like if you picked up two issues randomly?

I've read somewhere that Nocturna was a supporting character before the Crisis and a sort of surrogate mother to Jason. How the heck did he end up with a vampire lady as his surrogate Mom?

"Old" Nocturna, Natalia Knight, was just a lady with a pale skin complexion, not a vampire.

[Aahz]

Barr`s Jason was post crisis Jason, not pre. Likewise for the time Jason was a member of Donna`s Titans.

Not really. The Thing that that Crisis ended in March 1986. But the new continuity started in the Batman comics with Detective Comics #567 in October 1986, and Jasons origin was retconned in Batman #408 in June 1987. SO in many of his appearances during this time (which includes his apperances in Titans and most of bars Run), its hard to tell which Jason the Authors had in mind when they wrote the story.

And the Thing with Donna for example happended in New Teen Titans Vol 2 #21 from June 1986, when the current batman comics were still set in the old continuity.

And that's Jason in "For The Man Who Has Everything", right? Pretty cool. So do you think you could read a Pre-Crisis Jason story and a Post-Crisis Jason story and not really know it's two different continuities? Like if you picked up two issues randomly?

Probably.
But you can distinguish them, if you know the difference. The In the early post crisis storeys Jason more written like the young golden age Dick, and was somehow younger and cuter (and more written like a child than a teenager) than his pre crisis counterpart. which is kind of ironic, if you see what happened with the character.

[JBatmanFan05]

Pre-Crisis Jason wasn't the best concept, as he was a bit too much Dick Grayson-like. But the stories and era were great.

Early 80s Batman is a wonderful era of fun classic feeling soap opera stories. I custom bound it all.

Sadly, it will be impossible for DC to really much collect (into TPB) the era except in the scatter shot way it has thus far.

[Nite-Wing]

Everyone hated pre crisis Jason which undoubtedly led to him being killed off
I mean not to say that he didn't have his own character but the way they made him Robin on top of making him just like Dick was his ruin as a character imo
Post Crisis was a bit more reasonable but you have dumb bits like Morrison making him a red head again for whatever reason

[Aioros22]

Not really. The Thing that that Crisis ended in March 1986. But the new continuity started in the Batman comics with Detective Comics #567 in October 1986, and Jasons origin was retconned in Batman #408 in June 1987. SO in many of his appearances during this time (which includes his apperances in Titans and most of bars Run), its hard to tell which Jason the Authors had in mind when they wrote the story.

And the Thing with Donna for example happended in New Teen Titans Vol 2 #21 from June 1986, when the current batman comics were still set in the old continuity.

If memory serves, the Titans run in particular was stated to have happened after the COTIE. Most of the members were dealing with personal crisis on their own from that event (like Jericho`s struggle in accepting Quartz death) or Dick being distressed over the marriage of Kory and going after Raven and the Church of Blood, or Donna having problems with her own marriage. The team as it was, was disbanded.

Since most members were all off doing their own thing, Donna called in the "originals".

Everyone hated pre crisis Jason which undoubtedly led to him being killed off

What?

[DisneyBoy]

Yeah...peeople can't seem to make up their minds, or accurately remember, whether pre-crisis Jason was popular or not. I'm going to guess that he was rather well received. Otherwise, why bother tweaking his origin at all when they could just come up with an entirely new kid!

[JBatmanFan05]

Yeah...peeople can't seem to make up their minds, or accurately remember, whether pre-crisis Jason was popular or not. I'm going to guess that he was rather well received. Otherwise, why bother tweaking his origin at all when they could just come up with an entirely new kid!

It's somewhat fair to say that Jason overall was somewhat unpopular before his death. Many liked him, but many didn't. However, it's hard to tell whether the haters were thinking the rebooted version or the Pre-Crisis version. Probably the Post-Crisis version.

https://dcmultiversehistorian.wordpr...hos-who-entry/

[Aahz]

If memory serves, the Titans run in particular was stated to have happened after the COTIE. Most of the members were dealing with personal crisis on their own from that event (like Jericho`s struggle in accepting Quartz death) or Dick being distressed over the marriage of Kory and going after Raven and the Church of Blood, or Donna having problems with her own marriage. The team as it was, was disbanded.

It was after crisis, but the Batman comics at this time were also pre crisis but they were still set in "Earth One continuity" for some time.

Pre-Crisis Jason wasn't the best concept, as he was a bit too much Dick Grayson-like. But the stories and era were great.

Early 80s Batman is a wonderful era of fun classic feeling soap opera stories.

If this stories would have been a new version of Dicks early days as Robin, it would probably be a beloved classic to day. The whole Bronze Age (70s+80s), was in my opinion a great era for Batman Comics.

I mean not to say that he didn't have his own character but the way they made him Robin on top of making him just like Dick was his ruin as a character imo

His character was more developed than Dicks during his teen age years (Golden and Silverage). And some modern portraits of Dick as Robin were imo a little bit closer to Pre-Crisis Jason than to the Golden and Silver age Dick.