Where The Amazons Really Perfect?

[SiegePerilous02]

i wouldn't say people think they're too perfect, more like flawed Utopian. there were times where the amazons have this image of themselves as a perfect society, which came off as haughty and in some cases snobbish.

That would have been a great character flaw to give to their society, one that they need to overcome and move on by accepting everyone (men and women) into their society. Sounds like Morrison will be doing something along those lines in Earth One.

The pre-Flashpoint Amazons were never perfect, and I don't get where that became an actual thing among fandom. If anything, Diana is the one who comes across as perfect in some instances, but the rest of them? Not so much. What's more, we had several fantastic, fleshed out individual Amazons: Hippolyta, Philippus, Artemis, Menalippe, Hellene*, Mala, etc. What do we have now? Hippolyta is largely reduced to being about her affair with Zeus, Aleka is Artemis Lite, and the rest of the Amazons are largely a faceless mob. Compared to previous runs, Azzarello's Amazons are a joke.

*You want a nuanced "anti-male" Amazon? Hellene was able to give voice to her opinion, while still not being treated like a straw feminist and being open minded enough to the view points of Diana, Lin Koo, and others. Hell, Perez's own straw feminists, the Amazons of the Bana, still managed to be more fleshed out and sympathetic than Azz's Amazons.

[AmiMizuno]

I would have to agree Azz is building them up but still I would have loved to seen some tech by the amazons themselves. For me mystic tech would be a great improvement and a little advance time.

[borntohula]

I read it into the utopian angle of Paradise island, and the views of women in general.

Also, Azzarello always writes perfection as the enemy in his stories. And some WW readers sounds like they either read or want to read about a perfect WW & amazons, with anything else than that tends to be a subject of ugly words about women. It's obvious that he wants to raise some questions, so let's hope he succeeds even if it takes time getting there.

But either way. The amazons. They're reforming, and I'm finding that very interesting. And I really like the ideas the book is exploring in doing that.

I would have to agree Azz is building them up

Azzarello always explore flaws in characters when he writes. The Amazons are not alone, and not even close to the anti heroics of The Minutemen (let's just say murder and slavery is nothing.) in 100Bullets.

But Azzarello is no Mark Millar, since Brian injects tragedy to show some really moving moments where some of the characters tries to become better. Better than cold sociopathic assassins with James Bond cool.

A good example is Louise -Loop- Hughe's story in 100Bullets. Still breaks me up when he's told that "Yer father would be proud" after having said that he: "Just wasted a cadre a mutha#"€as . Don know why, and worse? I don feel nothin about it...". Bruce Springsteen class in making bad sad in a way that when it really gets you when you get it.

[Agent Z]

I read it into the utopian angle of Paradise island, and the views of women in general.

Also, Azzarello always writes perfection as the enemy in his stories. And some WW readers sounds like they either read or want to read about a perfect WW & amazons, with anything else than that tends to be a subject of ugly words about women. It's obvious that he wants to raise some questions, so let's hope he succeeds even if it takes time getting there.

But either way. The amazons. They're reforming, and I'm finding that very interesting. And I really like the ideas the book is exploring in doing that.



Azzarello always explore flaws in characters when he writes. The Amazons are not alone, and not even close to The Minutemen in 100Bullets. But Azzarello is no Mark Millar, since Brian injects tragedy to show some really moving moments where some of the characters tries to become better. Better than cold sociopathic assassins with James Bond cool.

A good example is Louise -Loop- Hughe's story in 100Bullets. Still breaks me up when he's told that "Yer father would be proud" after having said that he: "Just wasted a cadre a mutha#"€as . Don know why, and worse? I don feel nothin about it...". Bruce Springsteen class in making bad sad in a way that when it really gets you when you get it.

Perez was able to portray the Amazons as flawed while also getting people to sympathise with them as well. Azzarello hasn't even raised the question of why these Amazons would hate men so much, Of course, this is a big problem when it comes to certain writers; it never occurs to them that a society of women from ancient times might have understandable reasons for not trusting men. Read the Perez run; we were able to see how cruelly the Amazons were mistreated by men and at the same time we saw them trying to overcome the hatred of those injustices. The only woman in this series who has her behaviour explained is Hera and she's spent over a thousand years brutalizing other women for the crimes of being raped by her husband.

[borntohula]

Perez was able to portray the Amazons as flawed while also getting people to sympathise with them as well. Azzarello hasn't even raised the question of why these Amazons would hate men so much, Of course, this is a big problem when it comes to certain writers; it never occurs to them that a society of women from ancient times might have understandable reasons for not trusting men. Read the Perez run; we were able to see how cruelly the Amazons were mistreated by men and at the same time we saw them trying to overcome the hatred of those injustices. The only woman in this series who has her behaviour explained is Hera and she's spent over a thousand years brutalizing other women for the crimes of being raped by her husband.

No worries. I'v read Perez run, and I really liked. Has a good vertigo feel to it. I especially like the first arc.

But about this story. It's getting there, exploring why they don't like men. One point being weakness, an old one. Tradition. One Diana says made them strong. Not so much different to how many men today, in this world of ours, are keeping women back. God being said to having made man first, Women being tempting, Women being of another physical build than men and what not & so on, son.

And perhaps the tables are turned in this story? What if the women are stronger physically than the men? What if their god is a godess who made them first. What if men where deemed tempting. I have no idea other than I feel the story is getting to that. And with that, what you wrote, that there may be "actual" reasons behind this (Dio's "When you put it that way." in #30). it also , through Diana, makes the case that there are reasons to move beyond them. In this case the war with heaven that have just started.

Also Hera wasn't raped in this story. Her son was taken from her due to Zeus fear he'd take his seat, which makes her go after his bastards. Probably to get his attention, since not only is she feeling unloved by him, but neither does she love him anymore. She even wants queen Hippolyta to tell her what Zeus said to make her love him. Doesn't get much sadder than that, but it only makes her come around so much greater (and refreshingly without any rape in the origin.)

[Dr. Poison]

I never saw the pre-New 52 Amazons as anything near perfect. They had a lot of good things going for them such as their physical prowess, combat skills, and advanced technology but they had their share of flaws as well(see Gail Simone's "The Circle"). Now, they're simply much closer to Hannibal Lector.

[Agent Z]

No worries. I'v read Perez run, and I really liked. Has a good vertigo feel to it. I especially like the first arc.

But about this story. It's getting there, exploring why they don't like men. One point being weakness, an old one. Tradition. One Diana says made them strong. Not so much different to how many men today, in this world of ours, are keeping women back. God being said to having made man first, Women being tempting, Women being of another physical build than men and what not & so on, son.

And perhaps the tables are turned in this story? What if the women are stronger physically than the men? What if their god is a godess who made them first. What if men where deemed tempting. I have no idea other than I feel the story is getting to that. And with that, what you wrote, that there may be "actual" reasons behind this (Dio's "When you put it that way." in #30). it also , through Diana, makes the case that there are reasons to move beyond them. In this case the war with heaven that have just started.

Also Hera wasn't raped in this story. Her son was taken from her due to Zeus fear he'd take his seat, which makes her go after his bastards. Probably to get his attention, since not only is she feeling unloved by him, but neither does she love him anymore. She even wants queen Hippolyta to tell her what Zeus said to make her love him. Doesn't get much sadder than that, but it only makes her come around so much greater (and refreshingly without any rape in the origin.)

I'm not sure I'd buy it if that were the case given what is not only known about the ancient world, but how the myths of the Amazons change from time to time:
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/prev...s/case_amazon/

Whereas Azzarello is playing the myths straight, Perez was coming from the idea that the Amazons, while flawed, where misunderstood and demonized by the patriarchal cultures that opposed them. For all the complaints about how they were whitewashed pre-Flashpoint, very few complain about how adaptions of male Greek heroes tend to downplay their flaws or ignore them all together. You're more likely to have a movie about the Amazons being misandrist savages than you are likely to show Theseus kidnapping and raping women or the trouble Heracles caused when couldn't control his temper. Hell, look at the how the Spartans are portrayed in the 300 movie as passionate freedom lovers and not people who would slaughter their own slaves to discourage uprisings.

[borntohula]

I'm not sure I'd buy it if that were the case given what is not only known about the ancient world, but how the myths of the Amazons change from time to time:
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/prev...s/case_amazon/

Whereas Azzarello is playing the myths straight, Perez was coming from the idea that the Amazons, while flawed, where misunderstood and demonized by the patriarchal cultures that opposed them. For all the complaints about how they were whitewashed pre-Flashpoint, very few complain about how adaptions of male Greek heroes tend to downplay their flaws or ignore them all together. You're more likely to have a movie about the Amazons being misandrist savages than you are likely to show Theseus kidnapping and raping women or the trouble Heracles caused when couldn't control his temper. Hell, look at the how the Spartans are portrayed in the 300 movie as passionate freedom lovers and not people who would slaughter their own slaves to discourage uprisings.

Well, surely we can only speculate till we get to the ending. But I can say that Azzarello have written quite a couple (I'v read most of his books) of stories I consider really really awesome, and I think his take on WW is as great as Morrison's Batman. Therefor there are no breaks on the hype train I'm riding on

[brettc1]

Nearly every major run has had Paradise Island be destroyed in some way, usually titled Paradise Lost.

True, but in nearly every major run of Superman the planet has almost be obliterated.

And can anyone actually count how many times Asgard has been demolished?

[AmiMizuno]

Hey even though the amazons daughters now have fathers could the clay origin still be to weird for people relate to? I mean when we think about it wouldn't it matter many on how they are raised than how they are born?

[Lorendiac]

You're more likely to have a movie about the Amazons being misandrist savages than you are likely to show Theseus kidnapping and raping women or the trouble Heracles caused when couldn't control his temper. Hell, look at the how the Spartans are portrayed in the 300 movie as passionate freedom lovers and not people who would slaughter their own slaves to discourage uprisings.

I remember when Disney's "Hercules" movie came out. I watched it and I thought: "That was fun, but it sure wasn't the authentic Hercules!"

(I mean, even aside from the detail that "Hercules" was only the later Roman version of the character's name -- I'm told the original Greek name was more along the lines of "Heracles." It's obvious that nobody else cares about that in this day and age, so why should I lose any sleep over it?)

[Dr. Hurt]

Hey even though the amazons daughters now have fathers could the clay origin still be to weird for people relate to? I mean when we think about it wouldn't it matter many on how they are raised than how they are born?

Raised is the important part here. These new52 Amazons get newborns every 30 years. Before the reboot it was the same 3000 year old veterans. I like the dynamic this brings, that WW had classmates like Aleka, girls to grow up with, to go to school with, and that their entire society isnt made up by immortal Amazons. I mean, yeah they are immortals but this sex piracy thing implies they die and refresh their numbers and part of human nature and society is this circle.

My only objection is of course killing the sailors. Just feed them lotus or whatever, jeez.

[Dr. Hurt]

I'm not sure I'd buy it if that were the case given what is not only known about the ancient world, but how the myths of the Amazons change from time to time:
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/prev...s/case_amazon/

Whereas Azzarello is playing the myths straight, Perez was coming from the idea that the Amazons, while flawed, where misunderstood and demonized by the patriarchal cultures that opposed them. For all the complaints about how they were whitewashed pre-Flashpoint, very few complain about how adaptions of male Greek heroes tend to downplay their flaws or ignore them all together. You're more likely to have a movie about the Amazons being misandrist savages than you are likely to show Theseus kidnapping and raping women or the trouble Heracles caused when couldn't control his temper. Hell, look at the how the Spartans are portrayed in the 300 movie as passionate freedom lovers and not people who would slaughter their own slaves to discourage uprisings.

True, true. We've had genocides, human experiments, and torture up until the 20th cent... no scap that, we still have that. In the middle ages thousands of people would get slaughtered when an army would take a city. Prisoners of war were blinded, tortured, murdered, what have you. I remember reading that one third of the german population died during the thirty years war. Or how Ceasar massacred Gaul (modern day France) to bring it under Roman control. And in antiquity things were no different. We had an ancient greek class in school and we did Thucydides and you wouldnt believe the things the Athenians did to the Spartans and vice versa. So i dont think that the Amazons wouldnt have been people of their time, that they wouldnt have commited atrocities.

But it's true what you say about modern day films and books sanitizing whichever faction or person they believe the hero of the story. I think the only (at least of the successful, well known ones) franchise that didnt do this is Game of Thrones.

[Lorendiac]

Raised is the important part here. These new52 Amazons get newborns every 30 years. Before the reboot it was the same 3000 year old veterans. I like the dynamic this brings, that WW had classmates like Aleka, girls to grow up with, to go to school with, and that their entire society isnt made up by immortal Amazons. I mean, yeah they are immortals but this sex piracy thing implies they die and refresh their numbers and part of human nature and society is this circle.

My only objection is of course killing the sailors. Just feed them lotus or whatever, jeez.

That's a point. When I was a kid, I just took the "they've been hiding on their island practically forever" thing for granted, but when I look back on it nowadays, I do find myself thinking: "So these immortal women have spent the last three thousand years basically pretending that the masculine half of the human race doesn't even exist? Since on their island, it doesn't, and they never go anywhere else, so why worry about the subject? There's something twisted about that. You'd think some of the Amazons would be going stir-crazy after so long . . ."

[borntohula]

Hey even though the amazons daughters now have fathers could the clay origin still be to weird for people relate to? I mean when we think about it wouldn't it matter many on how they are raised than how they are born?

The only thing I heard about WW before was how she was made out of clay, how strong she was, the invincible plane, lasso and that was about it. But when I then read Azzarello and Perez's books I got what made the character special. I think both books did some cool stuff with the "clay" stuff. Much "cooler" than a girl so "pure" that she even didn't had a dad (something some seem to think should be the point.)

BTW, I wonder if Azzarello will go for some sort of heart symbolism with the clay thing. Perhaps Diana will propose that a heart is like clay, something that you can sculpt (for better or worse). Or is that too cheesy perhaps?

Brian often grounds his stories around different kinds of heart motifs, a bit like Grant Morrison likes to flip something negative into positive (something I hope he makes the most out of in Wonder Woman: The trial of Diana.)

What I'm thinking is that Azzarello wrote his Luthor: Man of Steel in such way, making the "super" what Luthor felt most threatened about. The perfection of superman = the end of human ambition and achievement.

See what I mean? He often go for a detail to expand upon through symbolism.