1. #99766

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by aja_christopher View Post
    Oliver is a putz.

  2. #99767
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Northeast US
    Posts
    12,806

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ouroboros View Post
    Oliver is a putz.
    only has a Peabody Award, yeah he knows d**k

  3. #99768
    Astonishing Member PaulBullion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Posts
    3,787

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT OF THE LAKE View Post
    It’s not as big of a deal as he’s playing it up, but it is a turn off for a lot of people.
    It only turns off heartless assholes who would vote Trump or David Duke anyway.

    Seriously. Do you think there is any undecided voter who looks at people pointing out that they feel disrespected and goes "THAT IS IT! I will become a nazi now!!"

    Edit: Coke to Zombiehavok.
    Last edited by PaulBullion; 06-11-2018 at 02:28 PM.
    "How does the Green Goblin have anything to do with Herpes?" - The Dying Detective

    Hillary was right!

  4. #99769
    Astonishing Member PaulBullion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Posts
    3,787

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    While I'm all for there being more oversight into where the money that goes into campaigns comes from, the idea that money that went into Trump being outspent by quite a bit is a part of what "Stopped" his opponent?

    That's an "Iffy" proposition. Even if you are being charitable.
    Oh I did not realize you were new to politics. How quaint!
    "How does the Green Goblin have anything to do with Herpes?" - The Dying Detective

    Hillary was right!

  5. #99770
    Astonishing Member PaulBullion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Posts
    3,787

    Default

    Totally serious Bernie supporter: "We need to get money out of politics!"

    Also totally serious Bernie supporter: "The Russian money used to spend against Hillary had no effect on her performance at the polls whatsoever! She is just a loser whore bitch!"
    "How does the Green Goblin have anything to do with Herpes?" - The Dying Detective

    Hillary was right!

  6. #99771
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    13,946

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulBullion View Post
    Oh I did not realize you were new to politics. How quaint!
    I'm sure you have a bunch of news spots from the run up to the election where folks were discussing how spending less money was going to win the election for Trump.

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulBullion View Post
    Totally serious Bernie supporter: "We need to get money out of politics!"

    Also totally serious Bernie supporter: "The Russian money used to spend against Hillary had no effect on her performance at the polls whatsoever! She is just a loser whore bitch!"
    First off, those are your words. Not mine. Let's make that very clear. Those words have no place in the discussion. You make sure the problem stays the problem every time you use them.

    As for money, there's a reason it should be dealt with. That reason is not that money that went into spending less actually plays a role in winning you an election.
    Last edited by numberthirty; 06-11-2018 at 02:36 PM.

  7. #99772

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tendrin View Post
    I think 'geographic sorting' is just a way to blame urban lack of representation on people moving to cities and a way to defend Republican congressional dominance.

    A 2015 study showed: Hyperbolic claims of a “sorted” country aside, geographic polarization in the United States is limited at best. Partisan polarization could be a real and consequential phenomenon in the electorate, but it has little geographic, “red versus blue” manifestation.

    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...111/ssqu.12202

    A 2016 study found /no evidence/ of partisan sorting

    https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/do...10.1086/687569

    Oh and here's another good one:

    http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/usappblog/201...n-realignment/

    What we're actually seeing with so-called 'geographic sorting' is the last realignment of the solid south, stronger extremes driven by the nationalization of local political races.

    The argument over 'geographic sorting' is just a backwards looking idea from a flawed place that seeks to blame people living in cities for living in cities for their lack of representation and demand unrealistic fixes telling people to move to places where there are no jobs so they can have a political voice. It's an absurd argument, Mets, designed only to explain why 'urban Democrats' have so many 'wasted votes', instead of ACTUALLY ADDRESSING THE ROOT OF THE PROBLEM, such as the House being frozen at 435 and the way districts are drawn, and yes, frigging gerrymandering.



    It could just be, and bear with me here, that the increasingly openly racist and sexist party you support has little in common with people living in a cosmopolitan center and that people who DO move there tend to become *less* racist and sexist.

    But hey, I didn't actually /want/ to have this discussion because anytime anyone brings up gerrymandering, you're quick to defensively post about 'geographic sorting', which is and will always remain political class hyperbolic bullshit as a way to explain 'just how things are' and how we're 'totally helpless to do anything about it' except demand completely unrealistic fixes: the bulk of which conveniently fall on Dem voters.
    We might be arguing past one another with the geographic sorting VS gerrymandering argument.

    You're correct in noting that it's a bit reductive to use the term geographic sorting when it isn't just people moving to areas where their political views are in line with those who came before, but sometimes a matter of people being influenced by the political views of those around them. There remains some sorting, since liberals will be more likely to move to urban centers, or left-wing enclaves in conservative districts, and conservatives will be more likely to move to rural and suburban areas. The rural/ urban divide is also quite important, so it isn't just about North VS South. For the policy discussions, this is a bit of a distinction without a difference since it doesn't really have any effect on the question of what should be done next.

    I don't point out the flaws in arguments about gerrymandering in order to say that there's nothing that we can or should do. Here, it's a distinction with a difference, since the problem and the solutions are different from what people might expect. If randomly selected geographically compact districts will get us about 1-2 less House Republicans than the current system, the conservative over-representation is not primarily due to gerrymandering. Many of the solutions to gerrymandering (allowing independent bodies or computer programs to redraw boundaries) will not apply, and it can get to a slightly dishonest place where liberals are arguing in favor of policies they don't actually want in order to obscure the complexity of the task.

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com...ting-maps/#Dem

    In order to solve the problem of the mismatch between the popular vote and congressional representation, different solutions are necessary. Pointing this out isn't a defense of the conservative congressional edge, but an essential part of the method of determining a solution that helps reverse a disadvantage to one party.

    It wouldn't be enough to undo the advantages of gerrymandering. You would explicitly have to pick a policy that results in higher representation for Democrats.

    There are a handful of options to achieve this, some of which can be used together.

    1. Unambiguous and open gerrymandering in favor of Democrats. This could backfire because it'll allow Republicans to gerrymander in their favor, and with complete control, they could change things so they would typically hold 275 seats in any congressional election, according to the 538 analysis.

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com...ting-maps/#GOP

    2. Legal arguments that voters are entitled to more proportional representation in Congress to sway judges and Supreme Court justices. This could backfire because any established precedent would have the potential for giving conservative lawyers a chance to change laws through the courts.

    3. Getting redistricting out of the hands of politicians, and into the hands of a nonpartisan body with clear instructions to achieve proportional results. This would be the fairest but difficult. For Democrats, there would be the question of whether they would want to stop here. It'll be procedurally similar to getting significant enough majorities to gerrymander to your favor (since it requires control of redistricting), without the advantage of shamelessness.

    4. Going for other means to increase the representation of Democrats. Washington DC statehood would provide two Democratic Senators and one member of Congress. Puerto Rican statehood would provide two more Democratic Senators and a majority of the 4-5 congressional members. There are basic fairness arguments here, as well as the point that there is no one in Congress to advocate for the residents of the capital, and that there might have been more urgency for Puerto Rico after Hurricane Maria with Senators and members of Congress willing to advocate on their behalf to other elected officials and to the national media.

    5. Coming up with a new system of representation. There's been a lot written on proportional voting, the idea that voters back a party and that the party gets seats based on their percentage of the vote. It offers third parties more of a a chance to participate, although it cements the idea that individual candidates don't matter and it's all about the (R) or (D) next to the name. A counterpoint is that this was what mattered for most voters anyway, and it could be better to just past any illusions.

    6. Other fixes. I've seen one suggestion that California be divided into seven smaller states, each with access to the ocean and its own major Metropolitian center, as a way to increase its share in the Senate and the electoral college.

    https://www.thenation.com/article/th...hts-for-power/

    Typically, the arguments about gerrymandering VS sorting don't really factor in voter suppression, since that's a different problem set, not based on where electoral lines should be drawn. As a result, I haven't written about it as much in any discussions on gerrymandering. The solutions differ, as do the concerns that lead to its implementation. It does seem to me that these policies have a tendency to backfire. 2012 saw arguments about voter suppression in swing states with Republican Governors, but the turnout among African-Americans was higher than among white people. There could be a connection: Nothing drives up voting and excites activists more than the perception that authorities are trying to keep you from voting.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  8. #99773

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    Kidding around. I assumed the initial post was as well.
    It would be very easy for someone to misunderstand since we don't see the host during the clip (Abby Huntsman and Scaramucci were talking over b-roll footage of Trump.)


    Quote Originally Posted by Trey Strain View Post
    The obsession with pride month, and these kinds of displays of support gets rather absurd. The idea that we should police our behavior to avoid offense due to relatively obscure weeks and months isn't going to be popular.


    Quote Originally Posted by PaulBullion View Post
    It only turns off heartless assholes who would vote Trump or David Duke anyway.

    Seriously. Do you think there is any undecided voter who looks at people pointing out that they feel disrespected and goes "THAT IS IT! I will become a nazi now!!"

    Edit: Coke to Zombiehavok.
    This wasn't about whether anyone might become a Nazi, but whether it's an attitude that could turn off voters who sometimes support Republicans and sometimes support Democrats.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  9. #99774
    Really Feeling It! Kevinroc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    California
    Posts
    7,025

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Trey Strain View Post
    “I’ll tell you what’s at the bottom of it. If you can convince the lowest white man he’s better than the best colored man, he won’t notice you’re picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he’ll empty his pockets for you.” - Lyndon B. Johnson

    (Can also apply to straight people regarding queer people.)

  10. #99775
    Postin' since Aug '05 Dalak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    3,670

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    The obsession with pride month, and these kinds of displays of support gets rather absurd. The idea that we should police our behavior to avoid offense due to relatively obscure weeks and months isn't going to be popular.

    This wasn't about whether anyone might become a Nazi, but whether it's an attitude that could turn off voters who sometimes support Republicans and sometimes support Democrats.
    I think the outcry would have happened Pride Month or no, but the reaction to the post (in my case) was due to the pretentiousness of saying this lost the Dems elections. Especially since the user in question has made it clear they believe that it's the main reason Trump won in 2016, which is ridiculous when you look at the other factors involved. On top of that twitter is full of overreactionary people as well as the ones who genuinely care about the issues involved, so any outcry on there that doesn't leave the twitterverse is not one worth caring about.

  11. #99776
    Fantastic Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    331

    Default

    Senate will try to reverse ZTE deal via a must-pass defense bill

    There's going to be a special place in hell next to Trudeau for daring to go against trump!

  12. #99777

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dalak View Post
    I think the outcry would have happened Pride Month or no, but the reaction to the post (in my case) was due to the pretentiousness of saying this lost the Dems elections. Especially since the user in question has made it clear they believe that it's the main reason Trump won in 2016, which is ridiculous when you look at the other factors involved. On top of that twitter is full of overreactionary people as well as the ones who genuinely care about the issues involved, so any outcry on there that doesn't leave the twitterverse is not one worth caring about.
    The problem is, and this is where a certain contingent of people on the left have a massive credibility and likability problem, is that there's nobody who saw that post and thought it had the slightest fucking thing to do with him trying to make some anti gay statement. And when he said, oh shit I didn't think about that, "you're right" that should have been the end of it. No reasonable person would actually think that it was any bit a political statement besides he probably liked a chicken sandwich he ate. But there's certain people that relished in shaming him for it because.... really the only rationale reason is they wanted something to bitch about so they could feel superior or get off on it. It's a massive turn off. I don't think it makes people alter their behavior whatsoever, which is why I said it's not a big deal. But really makes a lot of people not have a whole lot of empathy or sympathy when that segment (the outrage brigade on the left not the lgbtqia community) take a loss. And it is something the otherside absolutely uses as a tool to rally against.

    But yeah Trey is overselling that phenomena being the reason the Democrats aren't in control of the government. It doesn't help whatsoever, but no sane person is going against their interests for it.

  13. #99778

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ouroboros View Post
    Oliver is a putz.
    Well, he does go after easy targets. Anyone could make a living targeting a bunch of treacherous hypocritcal liars and thieves. Real men advocate absurd and unprovable conspiracies, I've said so for years. Thank god for Sean Ham-nity and his dry erase board of justice.
    You're like Witches in Salem. Just fuel for my fire.

  14. #99779

  15. #99780
    "Comic Book Reviewer" InformationGeek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    3,610

    Default

    WAIT! Hold the phone, here's a Trump tweet that's actually news!

    Our Great Larry Kudlow, who has been working so hard on trade and the economy, has just suffered a heart attack. He is now in Walter Reed Medical Center.

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •