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  1. #103231

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kal-El Summers View Post
    No one more progressive will ever win here. It'd literally take 50-60% of the white people in this state dropping dead for something like that to happen.
    That's Pretty much not true.
    in DEEP Red States during the Primary, Bernie pretty much won them all. Comfortably too.
    He reached out and gave them a Progressive message that didn't talk down to them, and even after losing, went BACK to talk to those same people.
    Democrats have to get out of this we can't win here Mindstate.

    Bernie Sanders is showing Democrats how to approach red states. In The Atlantic today, Clare Foran provides a dispatch from Sanders’ red-state health care rallies, and interviews the man himself:




    I'm not posting these to preach about Bernie himself, but to show that a Progressive message reaches everyone. You have to be willing to fail to win sometimes. Democrats FEAR losing, even though they are great at it.
    Is always confused.....

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  2. #103232
    Is always confused.....

    My Name is Psylocke, "Stabby stabby pew pew!"

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  3. #103233
    Mighty Member Kal-El Summers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tazirai View Post
    That's Pretty much not true.
    in DEEP Red States during the Primary, Bernie pretty much won them all. Comfortably too.
    He reached out and gave them a Progressive message that didn't talk down to them, and even after losing, went BACK to talk to those same people.
    Democrats have to get out of this we can't win here Mindstate.

    Bernie Sanders is showing Democrats how to approach red states. In The Atlantic today, Clare Foran provides a dispatch from Sanders’ red-state health care rallies, and interviews the man himself:




    I'm not posting these to preach about Bernie himself, but to show that a Progressive message reaches everyone. You have to be willing to fail to win sometimes. Democrats FEAR losing, even though they are great at it.
    Clinton won Alabama and won it quite handily(300,000+ to 76,000+). Like I said before, that dog won't hunt here.

  4. #103234

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kal-El Summers View Post
    Clinton won Alabama and won it quite handily(300,000+ to 76,000+). Like I said before, that dog won't hunt here.
    Why do you believe red state people won't support a living wage, education, healthcare, etc?
    Is always confused.....

    My Name is Psylocke, "Stabby stabby pew pew!"

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  5. #103235
    Mighty Member Kal-El Summers's Avatar
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    Because I've lived in this state all my life and am intimately familiar with all of it's ugly tendencies? Unless a at least half of the Alabama Republican electorate drops dead, guys like Doug Jones are about as close as you're gonna get to "progressive."

  6. #103236
    Chosen One Carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tazirai View Post
    Why do you believe red state people won't support a living wage, education, healthcare, etc?
    They seem convinced that those things are morally evil.
    "One may be intelligent, and a Nazi. Then one is not decent. One may be decent and a Nazi. Then one is not intelligent. And one may be intelligent and decent. Then one is not a Nazi"
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  7. #103237
    Fighting Injustice on CBR SUPERECWFAN1's Avatar
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    Honestly Bernie and Hillary both need to stay the hell home in 2020 and let someone else take a shot at beating Trump in 2020. Let Barack Obama work the campaign trial with whoever gets the nomination and use him to lure folks. That will do more than dragging both folks out. Also as I said you gotta go young and each time the Democratic party goes with a young 40 something person , they seemingly get folks behind that. (Clinton , Obama)
    "The story so far: As usual, Ginger and I are engaged in our quest to find out what the hell is going on and save humanity from my nemesis, some bastard who is presumably responsible." - Sir Digby Chicken Caesar.

  8. #103238
    Guardian Empress of Earth Tami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SUPERECWFAN1 View Post
    Honestly Bernie and Hillary both need to stay the hell home in 2020 and let someone else take a shot at beating Trump in 2020. Let Barack Obama work the campaign trial with whoever gets the nomination and use him to lure folks. That will do more than dragging both folks out. Also as I said you gotta go young and each time the Democratic party goes with a young 40 something person , they seemingly get folks behind that. (Clinton , Obama)
    We really don't see much about Hillary doing anything except for the occasional sighting. She tweets occasionally, but otherwise she is keeping a low profile.
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  9. #103239
    "Comic Book Reviewer" InformationGeek's Avatar
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    Well Trump was meeting with May currently and ah... doesn't sound particularly good.

    Also, apparently this is Trump's newest racist quote of day:

    Trump:
    "Allowing the immigration to take place in Europe is a shame
    I think it changed the fabric of Europe and unless you act very quickly it is never going to be what it was and I don’t mean that in a positive way,.
    I think you are losing your culture. "

  10. #103240

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    Quote Originally Posted by InformationGeek View Post
    Well Trump was meeting with May currently and ah... doesn't sound particularly good.

    Also, apparently this is Trump's newest racist quote of day:
    And that's the white nationalist s*** that Nigel Farage says.
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  11. #103241

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    Quote Originally Posted by SUPERECWFAN1 View Post
    Honestly Bernie and Hillary both need to stay the hell home in 2020 and let someone else take a shot at beating Trump in 2020. Let Barack Obama work the campaign trial with whoever gets the nomination and use him to lure folks. That will do more than dragging both folks out. Also as I said you gotta go young and each time the Democratic party goes with a young 40 something person , they seemingly get folks behind that. (Clinton , Obama)
    Name ONE Person Not Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez who can raise a profile like Bernie and has his popularity and support?
    Obama, I love the guy, but he's a centrist, and the country is NOT into Centrism right now. EVERYTHING shows this.
    Republicans get it, Democrats don't seem at all willing ot excite their bases. These are the people who practice #civility.
    I posted this earlier with little notice.

    Newsweek- MAJORITY OF DEMOCRATS WANT CANDIDATES TO BE MORE LIKE BERNIE SANDERS, POLL FINDS

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal-El Summers View Post
    Because I've lived in this state all my life and am intimately familiar with all of it's ugly tendencies? Unless a at least half of the Alabama Republican electorate drops dead, guys like Doug Jones are about as close as you're gonna get to "progressive."
    Point taken.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    They seem convinced that those things are morally evil.
    I mean I used to be a Christian and Muslim, and Mohammed and Jesus wanted healthy people. /shrug. Lol.
    Is always confused.....

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  12. #103242
    Extraordinary Member Malvolio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tazirai View Post
    That's Pretty much not true.
    in DEEP Red States during the Primary, Bernie pretty much won them all. Comfortably too.
    He reached out and gave them a Progressive message that didn't talk down to them, and even after losing, went BACK to talk to those same people.
    Democrats have to get out of this we can't win here Mindstate.

    Bernie Sanders is showing Democrats how to approach red states. In The Atlantic today, Clare Foran provides a dispatch from Sanders’ red-state health care rallies, and interviews the man himself:




    I'm not posting these to preach about Bernie himself, but to show that a Progressive message reaches everyone. You have to be willing to fail to win sometimes. Democrats FEAR losing, even though they are great at it.
    Key words: DURING THE PRIMARY. Yes, Bernie won in the South, but that was when only Democrats were voting. Most of those primaries weren't open. You had to be a registered Democrat to vote there. So it really doesn't say much about how Bernie would have done in the general election.

  13. #103243

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    Quote Originally Posted by aja_christopher View Post
    Claiming someone isn't your greatest foe doesn't mean that they aren't your foe -- likewise, they can quickly become your greatest foe by interfering in your elections, hacking your Congress' emails, and doing all of this in coordination with a candidate that they have chosen in an effort to subvert democracy both domestically and on a global scale.

    Again -- we can't have this "debate" as it's based purely on speculation. I you want to assume that all of the Russian interference is just a "democratic plot" to subvert Trump, then so be it: more facts will come to light soon enough, I'm sure.

    With regards to immigration, we already discussed that during the matter of the child separation -- I told you that I supported the bipartisan plan agreed on under Obama which increased border security while allowing for a path to citizenship. You started bringing up "open borders" repeatedly, which pretty much ended said conversation.

    Education is too complex an issue for me to get into right now -- just know that I've both attended many schools as a kid (military brat) and taught at many different schools as a "substitute": I both lived and taught in suburban, rural, and inner city areas throughout my life as well as overseas in Europe. I've also attended both private and public universities post-graduation so my perspective is based more on direct experience than what I read online or hear from others -- whether it's with regards to "race", immigration, or education.

    My childhood (half of which was spent on a military base) was largely multicultural and crime and poverty free but I know the effect that can have on others via close family members -- that said, I can see both the "conservative" and the "liberal" side in that respect. I have a lot of cousins who were just as smart as me in many ways -- teachers wanted to skip me from 1st to 3rd grade my first day in class -- but they lacked the proper resources and environment to put said intelligence to good use: it wasn't parenting (my mother never encouraged my studies) and it wasn't the proverbial "fatherless home" (my parents divorced before I was a teen and didn't stay in contact) -- it was more the environment than anything else.

    When I wanted to read, I could go to the base library. When I wanted to game, I could (safely) go to the local arcade with friends. When I wanted some money, I could go bag groceries at the local commissary for tips -- that's what kept me out trouble more than anything else. I grew up with friends that were white, black, Latino, Asian and from other countries all throughout my life -- to me that's what America should be and I feel fortunate to have had that experience. Thus, Trump and the Republicans pushing a borderline openly white supremacist agenda while attacking the very foundation of our democracy goes against nearly everything I know as both as an individual and as an American citizen.

    What I can say for certain is this -- Republican policies in the past have cost me my health care when I was injured on the job and couldn't get workman's comp, my unemployment benefits when I needed them most (post-Bush recession) right after said injury, directly threatened my civil liberties as an African-American male with policies such as "stop and frisk" and refusing to look into claims of discrimination both in our scholastic and law enforcement environments, they threaten the very environment with pollution and ignorant climate change policies, etc, etc, etc...

    Like I said before, I really just don't have the time to go into all of the details -- just know that if you had the same experiences that I've had you'd see the Republicans in a completely different light.

    Edit: Something I wanted to ask you in turn -- what positive do you think Republican policies are doing for our society by repeatedly attacking things like civil rights, gay marriage, equal pay for women, climate change, food and health care programs for the poor and a path to citizenship for people who were brought here as children -- and blatantly LYING when they do so?

    Don't you realize that almost any argument you make for the Republican party's principles and ideals become somewhat invalid simply because -- for the most part -- they repeatedly (balanced budget, equal opportunity, individual freedoms, etc) fail to live up to them?
    Thanks for your response.

    Obama suggesting it's a ridiculous notion that anyone would think Russia was the United States' greatest geopolitical foe does suggest he wasn't taking them seriously as a threat. That goes beyond just thinking there were other foes to worry about.

    To be clear, I don't think the Russia interference stories are a "Democratic plot." I think it's something the party wants to believe is true, even if what we know so far doesn't match the overarching conspiracy liberals seem to believe (Trump and his campaign worked together with top Russians or their underlings to hack the election, and now Trump owes Putin.)

    With immigration, stronger borders and a path to citizenship would cover how we handle illegal immigration. It doesn't handle legal immigration, which is a significant issue as well.

    My open borders comments aren't coming out of thin air. It seems to reflect the majority position on the left, gi.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...istake/528678/
    https://www.vox.com/2017/7/2/1584784...ft-immigration

    I want to be clear that what I'm referring to as "open borders" is a policy where pretty much anyone who wants can be on the path to being a US citizen relatively easily. There could still be a border patrol, and some rudimentary background checks to weed out anyone with criminal/ terrorist ties/ records.

    My background is different, but in terms of policy, the essential thing is getting as many people as possible to surpass their background.

    You ask my view on the Republican stance on civil rights, gay marriage, equal pay for women, climate change, food and health care programs for the poor and a path to citizenship for people who were brought here as children.

    Civil rights is a difficult topic, since there are costs to every change. If you increase the threshold for what it means to be guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, more people will go to jail. I'm not convinced this is a partisan issue, since there are plennty of screw-ups on the left (the Bronx DA with a habit of keeping people in jail for years before trial is not a Republican.) One major concern I have is that the principles are being lost to something more tribal (the white people who will treat white heroin addicts better than black crack addicts, the ACLU memo suggesting they're no longer going to defend certain types of speech.)

    Gay marriage was a massive, rapid social change. We're faulting Republicans for being a few years behind the Democrats on this (two-thirds of Democratic Senators came out in favor of it between 2010-2013.) The controversy is no longer about a right to gay marriage, but about the rights of the minority that doesn't support it.

    I think laws enforcing equal pay for women are prone to unintended consequences, and the push is based on some faulty assumptions (the majority of the gender gap is due to choices women make.) Enforcement is also going to be difficult given the problems of proving that individual cases are due to bias and not workplace performance.

    I am concerned about climate change, and advocate for fracking and nuclear power as alternative sources of energy. I'm optimistic about alternative energies as well, especially with solar power becoming more affordable in the last few years.

    The costs of food and health care programs for the poor have to be managed. Money is finite.

    As for a path to citizenship for people who were brought here as children, I have no objection to the children of legal immigrants becoming citizens. I know you meant the children of those who came in illegally, and in that case, I do favor a DREAM act type thing, but it would have to be done in a way that doesn't incentivize parents to bring their kids over from other countries illegally, and that doesn't reward people for pretending to be seeking educations when they're not.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  14. #103244
    Astonishing Member Darkspellmaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malvolio View Post
    Key words: DURING THE PRIMARY. Yes, Bernie won in the South, but that was when only Democrats were voting. Most of those primaries weren't open. You had to be a registered Democrat to vote there. So it really doesn't say much about how Bernie would have done in the general election.
    Thank you. No person can win down there without being either centrist or having a strong religous background.

  15. #103245
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkspellmaster View Post
    Thank you. No person can win down there without being either centrist or having a strong religous background.
    Where is the list of legitimate "Left" candidates that prove this?

    While I don't entirely disagree, it's not like we have a set of Southern Ocasio-Cortez equivalents whose losses point to this actually being the case. I'd say the reality is probably more "It's just not a option folks have been given."

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