All-purpose news and politics thread: Two Steps Beyond!

[Charles RB]

Is that even an argument? The EU is a failure because it doesn't get treated with nationalistic jingoism? I kind of thought that was the whole point.

It was. And true, nobody's going to die for the EU but since if the EU got invaded then all of Europe would be at risk, they'd probably die in name of stopping the Volgans or whoever from reaching their country.

The time between the speech that promoted the idea of a Tea Party and it being co-opted and overrun by the Koch brothers was merely a matter of days at best (some say a matter of hours). That's IF it wasn't a complete set-up by them in the first place (it's plausible that it was not).

The impression I always got was that it was not only co-opted fast, the Tea Party allowed it to happen without complaint - until much later when the racists had been too vocal and early, lapsed members wanted to pretend it had been something grand before The Actual Baddies had come in.

[7thangel]

the koch bros. were there from the start. they had several groups that were precursors to the movement and they were there before most of the so-called grass roots rank and file joined. they couldn't co-opt something they helped create.

[king mob]

Agree with you on the turnout. A mate of mine has been talking to people complaining about UKIP and then hearing them say they didn't actually vote and was furious about it to me earlier. These right-wing extremists and fascists are spreading over Europe and the thing is, their supporters are going to actually vote.

Indeed. There's a lot of anger being thrown rightfully at Russell Brand on social media for his stupidity, but the truth is there's loads of people complaining about UKIP who just didn't get up off their arses and vote.

EDIT: And they picked up 10.4% of the vote in Scotland and have a MEP there now.

Sadly yes, but it turns out David Coburn doesn't live in Scotland, and has some dubious opinions.

[king mob]

You are branding a lot of the parties with a very broad brush. The National Front is no Golden Dawn. Just my .02 cents.

Yes they are. They're as far right as you can get in mainstream politics.

[king mob]

Well the EU is a failed experiment, what do you expect going to happen when the major parties felt pressured to to even speak Anti-EU, the voters speak and the sooner the EU is gone, the faster the EU will be a better place.

Parts of the EU doesn't work and the EU needs more democracy, but the EU is hardly a 'failed experiment' no matter how much the extreme right say it is. The fact I've got guaranteed holidays , good health and safety laws and better free speech legislation than what was existing in the UK previously, is only a tip of what the EU has done right. It's things like the Working Time Directive that the likes of UKIP want to get rid of so they can drag things back to the 1950's.

[king mob]

Thing is, people have been claiming that since near the start of the European Coal and Steel Community and it's still there. People said the EU was clearly going to fall to bits very, very soon back in 2010 and it didn't. And countries keep trying to get in or buddy up to it.

EDIT: And despite losing seats, the pro-EU blocs still won



Hollande's saying the EU needs to reform and scale back, which seems more what people actually want outside of the people who freak out at the idea of Romanians next door.

Indeed. UKIP might be saying that 'they won' but they really didn't. The majority of people who voted, did so for pro-EU, or at worst, Eurosceptic parties. There's also the fact that UKIP nicked all of the BNP's vote.

[king mob]

It always was an elite driven project. The average guy might want free trade and freedom of movement/right to work but not much more than that. Almost nobody would die for the EU like they would for a nation state.

Tell people that the EU ensures they get maternity/paternity pay, guaranteed 21 paid holidays a year, employers that have to adhere to legislation that means they don't end up killing or injuring staff, or even that being part of the EU means they even have a job, or that their company trades freely with other EU members, and then people shut up and realise it's a good thing.

The 7% of laws the EU makes for the UK are almost all to do work, health and safety and human rights. That's what UKIP want to get rid of because it's a barrier for the wealthy business people backing the party.

[king mob]

Is that even an argument? The EU is a failure because it doesn't get treated with nationalistic jingoism? I kind of thought that was the whole point.

It was and is. But this is the level of UKIP supporters that we can't love the EU because we can't cheer on the flag. It's inane nonsense that parties should take on head on. Which is what Tony Blair says and he's right. Blair took on the Tories who ran an exceptionally dodgy campaign in 2005 (after the Iraq invasion and when Blair was vastly unpopular) and won it.
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[Paradox]

7thangel sees early work:

the koch bros. were there from the start. they had several groups that were precursors to the movement and they were there before most of the so-called grass roots rank and file joined. they couldn't co-opt something they helped create.

Right, I'm aware of the history, but I'm speaking of the speech in Chicago that called for it by name. I don't think those people were directly linked to the previous attempts, but the Kochs were quick to jump on the name and fame.

[7thangel]

Right, I'm aware of the history, but I'm speaking of the speech in Chicago that called for it by name. I don't think those people were directly linked to the previous attempts, but the Kochs were quick to jump on the name and fame.

rick santelli called for traders to form a tea party and dump derivatives in the river, all because the gov't were going to help the homeowners who were fleeced by the people he idolized and drank cocktails with.

[LoneNecromancer]

It was and is. But this is the level of UKIP supporters that we can't love the EU because we can't cheer on the flag. It's inane nonsense that parties should take on head on. Which is what Tony Blair says and he's right. Blair took on the Tories who ran an exceptionally dodgy campaign in 2005 (after the Iraq invasion and when Blair was vastly unpopular) and won it.
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Amazing that Blair of all people has to be the one to come in at this point and start talking sense.

[Arundel Armor Hunter]

Is that even an argument? The EU is a failure because it doesn't get treated with nationalistic jingoism? I kind of thought that was the whole point.

It's not a corporation, it wants to be a state and all states have to be capable of inspiring loyalty beyond pragmatism if they want to survive.

It was. And true, nobody's going to die for the EU but since if the EU got invaded then all of Europe would be at risk, they'd probably die in name of stopping the Volgans or whoever from reaching their country.

The first time there would be stakes every country would do its own thing.

[Mr. Mastermind]

I know I'm late, but massive ugh to UKIP winning anything, let alone a big election.

On the bright side, the results of the Lib Dems are pretty hilarious.

[Arvandor]

I know I'm late, but massive ugh to UKIP winning anything, let alone a big election.

On the bright side, the results of the Lib Dems are pretty hilarious.

That's a fair point to make. I'm sure many feel that if the Lib Dems hate them, they can't be all bad.

[Charles RB]

The founder of UKIP swears that his party has become a Frankenstein monster and it was explicitly meant to be not racist and xenophobic, but the xenophobic right took it over. (He claims Farage told him "there's no need to worry about the n***** vote. The n*****s will never vote for us") Crucially too:

"The party I founded has become a Frankenstein's monster," sighs Sked. "When I was leader, we wouldn't send MEPs to Europe because we didn't want to legitimise it. My policy was that if we were forced to take the salaries, we would give them to the National Health Service – they wouldn't be taken by the party or individuals. Now Ukip say they're against welfare cheats coming from eastern Europe, but in fact they're the welfare cheats."

Sked's suggestion is that Ukip MEPs do little to no work in Strasbourg and Brussels but take as much public money as possible in the form of salaries and, especially, expenses.

"They do nothing in the European parliament and take the money. They're no better than these people on [Channel 4 documentary series] Benefits Street. Farage has become a millionaire from expenses." Farage, of course, told foreign journalists in 2009 that he'd taken £2 million of taxpayers' money in expenses and allowances as an MEP on top of his £64,000-a-year salary. "There's no reason to vote for Ukip," says Sked, "because if they believed in what they said they wouldn't be there."

But aren't Ukip MEPs in Strasbourg and Brussels there to expose the workings of the European parliament, and aren't their expenses funnelled into promoting the party's message that the UK should get out of the EU? Sked giggles. "Oh, that's nonsense," he says. "They're hardly ever there. They just turn up for expenses. They don't turn up for key debates." And when Ukip does vote, he suggests, there's no party line. "When there were only three Ukip MEPs, the LSE European Studies institute found they voted three different ways."

He's trying to run a new party so he's got more than one objective going on here, but enough seems true to be illuminating about UKIP - and how it got popular. And how recently, at that.

And, y'know, how it got so easily and quickly taken over by right-wing xenophobes. Hmmm.