All-purpose news and politics thread: Two Steps Beyond!

[Tendrin]

In general I find it's those that find an excuse for every act of violence they commit who deny the Palestinians agency. It's always 'well, what did you expect?' for every rocket, suicide bombing, stabbing, car ramming, ect. Like it's human nature to go on a murder spree in response to a Jew being on the Temple Mount. Hamas can't stop diverting humanitarian aid to its war machine because ;'what do you expect.' Abbas can't stop paying salaries to murderers because 'what do you expect.'

Oh brother.

• More than 2,700 Palestinian demonstrators were injured on Monday — at least 1,350 by gunfire — along the border fence with Gaza, the Health Ministry reported. The mass protests began on March 30 and had already left dozens dead.

This isn't a defense of everything the Palestinians do (but lord knows they'll get criticized no matter what they do unless it's dying quietly) but there's always gonna be folks who'll come out to defend apartheid and the brutal tactics required to maintain it.

[Tendrin]

Not an excuse at all and ridiculous for you to even use that word. Hamas is clearly using the embassy as cover for attacks and are talking up the "martyrs" and using their deaths already.

https://twitter.com/BostonGlobe/stat...96286210068480

Hamas is gonna do what Hamas is gonna do. Clearly, Israel needs to get better at not giving them these PR victories or something.

Neverminding, of course, that none of this would be happening were it not for the intentionally provocative act of moving the US embassy to Jerusalem, a move spearheaded by a particularly strange and toxic alliance of the American far right and the Israeli far right.

[Iron Maiden]

Hamas is gonna do what Hamas is gonna do. Clearly, Israel needs to get better at not giving them these PR victories or something.

Neverminding, of course, that none of this would be happening were it not for the intentionally provocative act of moving the US embassy to Jerusalem, a move spearheaded by a particularly strange and toxic alliance of the American far right and the Israeli far right.

I keep saying to myself Trump is going to create another 9/11 incident with this alliance. I hope I'm wrong.

[Iron Maiden]

White House can't stop controversy over staffer's John McCain comment



And THAT, boys and girls, is why this story continues on and on. Everyone knows the ONLY thing that can put this mess to bed is a public mea culpa. Until that happens, nothing will change. Meanwhile....

**********

Conway: Heads will roll after latest White House leak



So, everyone in the White House is outraged over the leak, but NOT the disgusting comment about Senator McCain that spurred the leak in the first place. Yet another reason this story won't die.

Somebody should get Trump a dictionary so he could learn what traitor means. And who let Kellyanne Conway out of her coffin? They must be desperate to find talking heads in the WH.

[sunofdarkchild]

Oh brother.




This isn't a defense of everything the Palestinians do (but lord knows they'll get criticized no matter what they do unless it's dying quietly) but there's always gonna be folks who'll come out to defend apartheid and the brutal tactics required to maintain it.

When 40,000 people mass on a border in riots organized by a genocidal terrorist organization, which explicitly says that the goal is to overrun the border and murder the citizens of a neighboring country. When many terrorists embedded in the riots open fire on the soldiers on the other side of the border with guns, throw firebombs, pipe bombs, and grenades at those soldiers, you can bet that any nation is going to respond with force. Anyone who fires a gun or throws an explosive knows full well that the other side isn't going to let themselves be blown up and shot. If anything, under the circumstances it's amazing there weren't many times as many people killed. The figure for injuries may or may not be real, but if it is the deaths to injuries ratio is ridiculously lopsided. As of right now 24 of the people killed have been confirmed to be militants or taking active part in hostilities, and that figure is probably going to end up in the 40s if past experience is anything to go by. Every civilian killed is a tragedy, but as is usual with these tragedies, waiting for all the facts usually makes Israel look better than the initial media reports do.

[Iron Maiden]

I thought Trump was all about saving jobs for Americans? Trump's ZTE tweet sows confusion before trade talks with China T

Senior U.S. officials struggled Monday to explain and act on President Donald Trump's abrupt decision to rescue Chinese telecom giant ZTE - a move that caught many of them by surprise.

ZTE said last week that it would shutter major operations after the United States announced punitive measures in response to the company's failure to comply with a settlement of charges for violating sanctions on Iran and North Korea. But Sunday, in a stunning reversal that officials said came without a formal policy process at the White House, Trump tweeted that he had ordered Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross to save ZTE from collapse, saying the company's failure would cost too many jobs in China.

Now why the sudden change by Trump to help a Chinese company save jobs? Could it be this deal? China has committed half billlion dollars to an Indonesian development that will include Trump branded hotels and golf courses. The deal has been in talks for a while but now it's suddenly moving forward.

The only person that seems to be making some noise about this is Senator Marco Rubio saying that reversing the decision about tech giant ZTE would create a national security risk.

So let's see. Just this week we have the Trump family enriching themselves with a development in Indonesia and then whatever it was Michael Cohen was doing by collecting money to get access to Trump. What does it take to start an investigation of this administration by the GOP? Oh, I forgot. They probably want to finish up on Benghazi first.

[Iron Maiden]

When 40,000 people mass on a border in riots organized by a genocidal terrorist organization, which explicitly says that the goal is to overrun the border and murder the citizens of a neighboring country. When many terrorists embedded in the riots open fire on the soldiers on the other side of the border with guns, throw firebombs, pipe bombs, and grenades at those soldiers, you can bet that any nation is going to respond with force. Anyone who fires a gun or throws an explosive knows full well that the other side isn't going to let themselves be blown up and shot. If anything, under the circumstances it's amazing there weren't many times as many people killed. The figure for injuries may or may not be real, but if it is the deaths to injuries ratio is ridiculously lopsided. As of right now 24 of the people killed have been confirmed to be militants or taking active part in hostilities, and that figure is probably going to end up in the 40s if past experience is anything to go by. Every civilian killed is a tragedy, but as is usual with these tragedies, waiting for all the facts usually makes Israel look better than the initial media reports do.

But it all boils down to powers outside of their country bargained away land that really didn't belong to them. The British didn't want this done and up until then the area was under their colonial control. They wanted the Arab states to have a seat at the table.

[WestPhillyPunisher]

https://thinkprogress.org/pennsylvan...-fb297d0719c6/

"We don't talk about those things." Well, yeah, that's kind of the problem.

Exactly! More often than not, it's very white assclowns like Kelly who don't want to talk about racism because they don't want the country's shady past vomited up from back when blacks were enslaved and treated like cattle, no, worse than cattle; when hordes of rampaging, bloodthirsty madmen wore sheets and rode around shooting, burning and lynching blacks in the deep south; when institutional discrimination on a level comparable to Apartheid was all but the law of the land; when blacks today as treated as thugs, criminals and subhumans. Is THAT what shitstains like Kelly don't want to talk about? Fuck him!

[Tendrin]

But it all boils down to powers outside of their country bargained away land that really didn't belong to them. The British didn't want this done and up until then the area was under their colonial control. They wanted the Arab states to have a seat at the table.

Well, there's that and the fact that Jerusalem was always supposed to belong to nobody in particular to keep things from being crazy. The greater Israel project required it, however.

MeanwhileC the protests aren't about 'murder all Israelis' and such. They're an escalation of already existant protests over the right of return and other conditions. The embassy move absolutely escalated it. Now, of course Israel is going to say whatever to make itself look less bad and there will always be people who are willing to believe it, just as there are those for whom Israel will never be in the right.

However, when the power is almost entirely in the hands of the heavily armed army on the border causing thousands of injuries, you don't get credit with a 'it might have been worse!'. This kind of brutality is par for the course of military occupation and apartheid policies. And let's not forget that Israel has an extremely savvy pr system itself.

[sunofdarkchild]

But it all boils down to powers outside of their country bargained away land that really didn't belong to them. The British didn't want this done and up until then the area was under their colonial control. They wanted the Arab states to have a seat at the table.

That is an unfortunate situation that exists in many places around the world, including for many peoples in the Middle East. The difference is that unlike the Kurds, the Palestinians have had numerous opportunities to establish their own state, having been offered a state in 1937, 1947, 2000, 2001, and 2008. The fact that they are stateless at this point boils down to the fact that destroying the Jewish state remains more important to their leaders than establishing their own state. Israel has not even occupied Gaza for 13 years. Not a single soldier is in Gaza except for the bodies of 2 soldiers that are being held by Hamas. Not a single Jew is in Gaza except for a couple that are again held captive. They receive more in foreign and humanitarian assistance per capita than anyone else in the world. But rather than use Israel's pullout to attempt to build something out of Gaza, or all that money to set up a working state apparatus in the West Bank, destroying Israel remains the primary goal. It really is sad that the Palestinians have been basically held captive by their leaders since the start of the conflict, and by the surrounding Arab states that refuse to allow them to become citizens under any circumstances.

[Tendrin]

Ah, yes. The incredible shrinking Gaza.

[Jackmando7]

I wonder if opinions in general would be different if the Jewish people looked middle eastern and the Arab people looked white.

[Iron Maiden]

That is an unfortunate situation that exists in many places around the world, including for many peoples in the Middle East. The difference is that unlike the Kurds, the Palestinians have had numerous opportunities to establish their own state, having been offered a state in 1937, 1947, 2000, 2001, and 2008. The fact that they are stateless at this point boils down to the fact that destroying the Jewish state remains more important to their leaders than establishing their own state. Israel has not even occupied Gaza for 13 years. Not a single soldier is in Gaza except for the bodies of 2 soldiers that are being held by Hamas. Not a single Jew is in Gaza except for a couple that are again held captive. They receive more in foreign and humanitarian assistance per capita than anyone else in the world. But rather than use Israel's pullout to attempt to build something out of Gaza, or all that money to set up a working state apparatus in the West Bank, destroying Israel remains the primary goal. It really is sad that the Palestinians have been basically held captive by their leaders since the start of the conflict, and by the surrounding Arab states that refuse to allow them to become citizens under any circumstances.

But Israel is not helping their cause by using live ammunition on protesters who are unarmed. Normally, I would be more sympathetic to them but not today.

[sunofdarkchild]

Well, there's that and the fact that Jerusalem was always supposed to belong to nobody in particular to keep things from being crazy. The greater Israel project required it, however.

MeanwhileC the protests aren't about 'murder all Israelis' and such. They're an escalation of already existant protests over the right of return and other conditions. The embassy move absolutely escalated it. Now, of course Israel is going to say whatever to make itself look less bad and there will always be people who are willing to believe it, just as there are those for whom Israel will never be in the right.

However, when the power is almost entirely in the hands of the heavily armed army on the border causing thousands of injuries, you don't get credit with a 'it might have been worse!'. This kind of brutality is par for the course of military occupation and apartheid policies. And let's not forget that Israel has an extremely savvy pr system itself.

Hamas Gaza Chief Yahwa Sinwar: “The March of Return will continue… until we remove this transient border.” The protests “mark the beginning of a new phase in the Palestinian national struggle on the road to liberation and ‘return’… Our people can’t give up one inch of the land of Palestine.”

Hamas published maps detailing the shortest routes to the nearest Israeli towns once they broke through the border. The kites that were sent with firebombs attached to them also had swastikas painted on them.

For better or worse, defending the border from violent attack is very different from a normal protest or a peaceful demonstration. Any civilians who were killed should have their deaths investigated. But until proof beyond shock over sheer numbers is presented being better armed does not negate one;s right to self-defense.

[sunofdarkchild]

But Israel is not helping their cause by using live ammunition on protesters who are unarmed. Normally, I would be more sympathetic to them but not today.

Except a lot of them were armed. There were gunfights in which Hamas terrorists fired guns at the IDF soldiers before the IDF returned fire. There were grenades thrown, firebombs, pipe bombs. The kite with firebombs attached has become a favored weapon.

This is part of what I mean when I say wait for the facts. How many of these dead were armed? Right now we don't know. 24 are confirmed to have either been terrorists or actively engaged in hostilities, which means they were most likely armed with either a gun or an explosive. and it is likely that more will be confirmed.

If Israel had killed 60 unarmed protesters, I'd condemn that without hesitation. There'd likely even be widespread protests within Israel. But right now the evidence does not support that claim. That could change, but I doubt it's likely based on past experience.