All-purpose news and politics thread: Two Steps Beyond!

[Mikekerr3]

The last six years have been pretty rough.

Only if you pay attention to lies you are being fed not reality, Crime has contineded to fall in the last six years, despite the finical interests of the media to hype what does exist.

[Batzarro]

Only if you pay attention to lies you are being fed not reality, Crime has contineded to fall in the last six years, despite the finical interests of the media to hype what does exist.

Our economy isn't doing so hot. And our foreign policy is a mess right now.

[Batzarro]

The same logic applies. Mexican families come to there own communities where they can operate within a larger society. Workers perform menial labour so they don't need english and if they do there is usually one that can direct others what to do. The children go to english schools so they do learn the language.

Unfortunately, it's not working. There is a difference between learning conversational English and academic English. Hispanic students should be doing much better, especially with all the bilingual and ESL services.

I've been working for 15 years in an urban school in a very blue city; with a mostly Hispanic population. I've seen this happen over and over again. Liberal policies are terribe for Hispanic people.

[Pinsir]

Unfortunately, it's not working. There is a difference between learning conversational English and academic English. Hispanic students should be doing much better, especially with all the bilingual and ESL services.

I've been working for 15 years in an urban school in a very blue city; with a mostly Hispanic population. I've seen this happen over and over again. Liberal policies are terribe for Hispanic people.

|The problem is these people will be at the bottom of the economic order no matter what you do, liberal policies or not.

[Jeff Brady]

Do their kids speak fluent English? How are their families doing economically? Are they living in areas where nobody else around them speak English? Have their children graduated h.s.? Are they on public assistance? Do they pay taxes? Do their local schools have to spend extra money to educate their children in their native tongue? Did they apply for political asylum, and didn't have time to prapare for their residency? Do they think America is a great country, and worth their loyalty? American citizenship is about more than an "official document".

None of those things matter. There are citizens who were born here and do speak English and are, as you might describe them, as leeches on our resources and may not think " 'Murica, f*** yeah ". Do we question their value as a citizen? As a human being? If we're going to remeber the line "all men are created equal" on this day of all days, then we can dispense with judging the value of people, regardless of what language they speak and how much they contribute to society. There are geniuses born into poverty. The selfish and incurious are born into affluence. Do we punish the latter?

[Batzarro]

None of those things matter. There are citizens who were born here and do speak English and are, as you might describe them, as leeches on our resources and may not think " 'Murica, f*** yeah ". Do we question their value as a citizen? As a human being? If we're going to remeber the line "all men are created equal" on this day of all days, then we can dispense with judging the value of people, regardless of what language they speak and how much they contribute to society. There are geniuses born into poverty. The selfish and incurious are born into affluence. Do we punish the latter?

Nobody is denying their value as human beings. In fact, illegal immigrants are only continuing to break the law because immigration activists, business leaders, and politicians encourage this bad behavior. As I've posted before, there are billions of people who want to come here. Is everybody entitled to come here? Are there no restrictions on immigrations you would support? I've stated what I think should be done. What is your position?

[Batzarro]

|The problem is these people will be at the bottom of the economic order no matter what you do, liberal policies or not.

Why would you say that? If new arrivals are allowed to assimilate, there is no reason I can think of that they can't make it. I'm jewish. After my grandma (legally) entered here, there was a moratorium on east European immigration. Undoubtably, there were anti-Semites who supported it. But it turned out to be a great thing for millions of new immigrants and the country as a whole. It allowed my group to assimilate (without welfare or bilingual education) and have a shot at the American dream. If Jewish immigration was the same as Latin American immigration is today, Jews would be a lot less successful, And I would be stuck on the Lower East Side, on welfare, and speaking fluent Yiddish with a smattering of English. Liberal policies are terrible for Hispanics.

[Clarkie]

Nobody is denying their value as human beings.

illegal immigrants are only continuing to break the law because immigration activists, business leaders, and politicians encourage this bad behavior.

---semprini

[Clarkie]

Nobody is denying their value as human beings.

If new arrivals are allowed to assimilate, there is no reason I can think of that they can't make it. I'm jewish. After my grandma (legally) entered here, there was a moratorium on east European immigration. Undoubtably, there were anti-Semites who supported it. But it turned out to be a great thing for millions of new immigrants and the country as a whole. It allowed my group to assimilate (without welfare or bilingual education) and have a shot at the American dream. If Jewish immigration was the same as Latin American immigration is today, Jews would be a lot less successful, And I would be stuck on the Lower East Side, on welfare, and speaking fluent Yiddish with a smattering of English. Liberal policies are terrible for Hispanics.

----------

[Mikekerr3]

Our economy isn't doing so hot. And our foreign policy is a mess right now.

Unemployment is lower than it has been since Bush sabotaged the economy and the DOW just broke all time highs Thursday. Where are you getting your news from?
Our foreign Policy is less of a mess than it was before the previous 6 years, for example how many Americans have died this year becasue the president and vice president wanted a warfor poltical and fincial reasons? The problems in Iraq w are due to us beibg stupid enough to invade, but not stupid enough to continue to sacrifice people on a lost cause for generations. Blaming Obama for not fixing a idiotic decison from the prevous admistarations is a boit sill isn't it? Some mistakes there is no real way f of fixing cleanly, Bushes spiteful idiocy in Iraq is one of them.

[Batzarro]

Unemployment is lower than it has been since Bush sabotaged the economy

The economic crisis of 2008 was the result of bad policies advocated by both Republicans and Democrats and the Federal Reserve going back to the 70's. Blaming Bush exclusively is just being partisan.


[/QUOTE]the DOW just broke all time highs Thursday.

Much of the DOW growth is due to increased foreign accumulations. Real economic milestones paint a less rosy picture. Unemployment is still very high and wages and work hours are weak. Who care how good the stock market is if people don't feel it in their daily lives?

Where are you getting your news from?[/QUOTE]

A number of different sources. CNN, The New York Times, NPR, C-SPAN, and a couple of conservative news sources that I'm sure you would dismiss. And then I make up my own mind.

[/QUOTE] Our foreign Policy is less of a mess than it was before the previous 6 years, for example how many Americans have died this year becasue the president and vice president wanted a warfor poltical and fincial reasons? The problems in Iraq w are due to us beibg stupid enough to invade, but not stupid enough to continue to sacrifice people on a lost cause for generations. Blaming Obama for not fixing a idiotic decison from the prevous admistarations is a boit sill isn't it? Some mistakes there is no real way f of fixing cleanly, Bushes spiteful idiocy in Iraq is one of them.[/QUOTE]

Obama ran for president in 2008 of his own free will. Any conditions in the world left over from the previous administration become his responsibility be default. But let's say I agree, and he had to clean Bush's mess. He is still directly responsible for the following:

*Using his political power to pass the Affordable Care Act, the biggest social program to be passed since Medicare/Medicaid, on a straight partisan vote. Legislation that remains widely unpopular by those who can even understand it. During an economic downturn no less.

*the travesty of Benghazi

*the dishonorable Bergdahl swap which may come back to haunt us later in the form of terrorist attacks.

*pulling out of a stable Iraq without leaving any force behind, for political purposes. All the death in Iraq now is a direct result of this action. You can't reasonably blame Bush for the ISIS attacks.

And that's just off the top of my head. Now, I won't argue that Bush was a great president. And,in the spirit of fairness, Obama has done a few things right. Giving the order to kill Osama Bin Laden. Providing relief to Hurricane Sandy victims. Giving the order during the Captain Philips incident. And being faithful to his wife and not having sex with an intern in the White House (like you know who). Are you seriously telling me that Obama has done nothing wrong? Made no mistakes or missteps? If that his the case, he would go down as the greatest president in history.

[Vibranium]

Iraq was going to always be unstable, whether the US left now OR in 4 years...any government put in place was going to have to deal with the warlords at some point..ISIS has just accelerated that process

[Pinsir]

Why would you say that? If new arrivals are allowed to assimilate, there is no reason I can think of that they can't make it. I'm jewish. After my grandma (legally) entered here, there was a moratorium on east European immigration. Undoubtably, there were anti-Semites who supported it. But it turned out to be a great thing for millions of new immigrants and the country as a whole. It allowed my group to assimilate (without welfare or bilingual education) and have a shot at the American dream. If Jewish immigration was the same as Latin American immigration is today, Jews would be a lot less successful, And I would be stuck on the Lower East Side, on welfare, and speaking fluent Yiddish with a smattering of English. Liberal policies are terrible for Hispanics.

The problem is that Jewish history in the US is so different from Hispanics. Jewish migrants had to make a cross Atlantic trip to the US, so already only those with some money (and therefore skill) could make the trip. This is true for pretty much any successful minority group. In my country Indian migrants as a group score the highest for income despite coming from a very poor country. Because we pick and choose the best of the country and bring them over.

Hispanic (and African) populations do not have this experience in the US (They do in my country though). You gain the best of Mexico too, but unfortunately the majority are not. They perform the lowest paying work that doesn't provide much chance to move up. School may give their children a better chance, but unlike other migrants their parents may not place much emphasis on it.

You can say "Well these people are not reaching their best of the ability under X policy" but it is unlikely they will do significantly better under any other. These changes take generations to implement and won't really change depending on who is in power. If Mexicans were like Jews, Indians or anyone other successful minority group and were only brought by having a skill (or the money) there situation would be better, however:
> Hispanic Americans are already 16% of the population
> Mass deportations are unlikely to occur
> Big Businesses that run the US government require this cheap labour
> People will all slip past a wall or tougher border security anyway (I read somewhere that most get past the border through visas, but just don't return when it expires)

[Batzarro]

The problem is that Jewish history in the US is so different from Hispanics. Jewish migrants had to make a cross Atlantic trip to the US, so already only those with some money (and therefore skill) could make the trip. This is true for pretty much any successful minority group. In my country Indian migrants as a group score the highest for income despite coming from a very poor country. Because we pick and choose the best of the country and bring them over.

Hispanic (and African) populations do not have this experience in the US (They do in my country though). You gain the best of Mexico too, but unfortunately the majority are not. They perform the lowest paying work that doesn't provide much chance to move up. School may give their children a better chance, but unlike other migrants their parents may not place much emphasis on it.

You can say "Well these people are not reaching their best of the ability under X policy" but it is unlikely they will do significantly better under any other. These changes take generations to implement and won't really change depending on who is in power. If Mexicans were like Jews, Indians or anyone other successful minority group and were only brought by having a skill (or the money) there situation would be better, however:
> Hispanic Americans are already 16% of the population
> Mass deportations are unlikely to occur
> Big Businesses that run the US government require this cheap labour
> People will all slip past a wall or tougher border security anyway (I read somewhere that most get past the border through visas, but just don't return when it expires)

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this point. My grandma came here as a young girl with no english comprehension, and certainly no skills to speak of, and without the welfare/bilingual supports that are available to immigrants today. All her family had where the voluntary support of the neighbors in their community to help them. And they wanted to be American. It was important to them that they contribute to society and pull their own weight. Again, there is no reason in my mind why this can't happen in the Hispanic populations in our country if we didn't have to contend with the problem of undocumented workers. I can't stress this enough; when you're first act in this country is to break the law and cut in line, your immigrant experience is going to be vastly different from immigrants of old. If you depend on the government programs to "take care of you", you're self-esteem and faith in your own ability is affected. Your belief in the power of education is affected. Not everyone is going to remain poor. Some of the families I worked with were able to get their children out of the cycle. But to do that, they had to ignore the culture around them and embrace traditional values like delayed gratification and academic excellence.

Several posters have claimed that this is all about race. For some, maybe. But not for me. The policies advocated here continue to bring misery to legal and illegal immigrants alike.

[Jeff Brady]

*Using his political power to pass the Affordable Care Act, the biggest social program to be passed since Medicare/Medicaid, on a straight partisan vote. Legislation that remains widely unpopular by those who can even understand it. During an economic downturn no less.

It's actually very popular. A lot of the people who don't like it do so because it's not a single-payer system.

*the travesty of Benghazi

Which could have been avoided if the GOP-controlled Congress had approved more funding for security.

*the dishonorable Bergdahl swap which may come back to haunt us later in the form of terrorist attacks.

It is in no way dishonorable.

*pulling out of a stable Iraq without leaving any force behind, for political purposes. All the death in Iraq now is a direct result of this action. You can't reasonably blame Bush for the ISIS attacks.

Iraq was last stable under Saddam Hussein, far from ideal though he was. Bush/Cheney are completely responsible for all of the Middle Eastern destabilization and everything that comes after.

Are you seriously telling me that Obama has done nothing wrong? Made no mistakes or missteps? If that his the case, he would go down as the greatest president in history.

I don't think he's perfect. He's pretty good for someone to the right of Nixon.