All-purpose news and politics thread: Two Steps Beyond!

[Mikekerr3]

Most GG people are not conservative, they tend to be liberal. However they are mostly cis white males atheists, the so called 'neckbeard' group. They agree in the basic values of liberalism, but they think in the social realm things have gone to far. Perhaps 'liberal libertarian' or something is the appropriate word.

Conservative and bigoted clowns thugs playing at being liberal and libertarian at best. what they are doing is not liberal and defiantly not libertarian, just thuggish bulling from the privileged AKA reactionary conservatives

[Shawn Hopkins]

If you're anti-feminist, can you really be liberal or libertarian? I don't think it's compatible.

I know Pinsir posted that cartoon to disagree with it, but I think it's the truth. The GamerGate movement is just a neo-reactionary movement using gaming as a disguise.

Look at the most prominent voices of Gamergate. You've got rabid right wing actor Adam Baldwin. You've got anti-feminist Christina Sommers. You've got rapey MRA and Pickup Artist Mike Cernovich. And you've got Breitbart writer Milo Yiannopoulos.

Here's a really revealing Twitter convo from two of them talking about sexually "punishing" SJWs.

https://twitter.com/PlayDangerously/...12552928276480

It'd be different if they were trying to kick these people out, or repudiate their nasty views. But no, they love them. They call Sommers "Mom," which pretty much confirms it's an anti-feminist movement in and of itself. They call Cernovich "based lawyer."

The most prominent voice in the gaming community that is sort of, kind of on their side is this YouTube guy Total Biscuit. And even he's ambivalent about it. I think he's just making a big show of being neutral so as not to alienate his audience.

[Kid A]

So who do they vote for? The lesser of two evils is still a clear loss at this point.

Not saying this will necessarily help right away, but we could always use more third party votes.

[lancerman]

If you're anti-feminist, can you really be liberal or libertarian? I don't think it's compatible.

Yeah.

There's plenty of people who identify as liberal, predominantly vote for liberal candidates and support liberal causes, that then go out and make racist or sexist statements and take actions that are racist or sexist.

Being liberal or conservative is just a matter of self identifying more with one of the two particular philosophies, it doesn't mean a complete across the board falling in line with everything. Very few people actually do.

But this does kind of remind me of the old criticisms greater liberal democracy (I'm talking about liberalism on a world wide scale, not the marginalized American version of one) where supposedly two liberal democracies will never fight a war with each other, but then when it happens either it's not are real war or they aren't really liberal.

[Shawn Hopkins]

Yeah.

There's plenty of people who identify as liberal, predominantly vote for liberal candidates and support liberal causes, that then go out and make racist or sexist statements and take actions that are racist or sexist.

Being liberal or conservative is just a matter of self identifying more with one of the two particular philosophies, it doesn't mean a complete across the board falling in line with everything. Very few people actually do.

Being a self-identified liberal or libertarian doesn't actually make you one. If you actually believe genders should be unequal, you're not liberal or libertarian, regardless of how you vote or what bumper stickers you put on your car. And that's not a "No True Scotsman" argument, it's a matter of simply not fitting the definition.

[lancerman]

Being a self-identified liberal or libertarian doesn't actually make you one. If you actually believe genders should be unequal, you're not liberal or libertarian, regardless of how you vote or what bumper stickers you put on your car. And that's not a "No True Scotsman" argument, it's a matter of simply not fitting the definition.

The definition of "liberal" is much broader than you are giving it credit for. And gender issues aren't the only hallmark of liberalism, not even one of the top ones. If you gave a comprehensive definition of liberal, there's very few people that would completely clear every hurdle of it.

But even if I take that at face value, the people in gamergate are essentially sexist, boarish, slut shaming pigs who don't like women in their little hobby. Basically a boys club. But I don't know that any of them have been making comments on far greater issues of gender equality that is broadly accepted amongst their silly little "movement". Maybe they have, I just haven't seen it. In short their sexist assholes.

[Pinsir]

Being a self-identified liberal or libertarian doesn't actually make you one. If you actually believe genders should be unequal, you're not liberal or libertarian, regardless of how you vote or what bumper stickers you put on your car. And that's not a "No True Scotsman" argument, it's a matter of simply not fitting the definition.

Most of these GG people and anti-feminists in general maintain a belief in equality of the sexes. They just think that modern feminism is about placing women above men and granting them special rights and privileges. They also think men have similar cultural assumptions placed on them that are unfair and are ignored.

If these people call themselves liberal, progressive, Democrats, etc then I don't see the point in saying they aren't. These definitions are fluid anyways and vary depending on person, region, time period, etc.

[Shawn Hopkins]

The definition of "liberal" is much broader than you are giving it credit for. And gender issues aren't the only hallmark of liberalism, not even one of the top ones. If you gave a comprehensive definition of liberal, there's very few people that would completely clear every hurdle of it.

But even if I take that at face value, the people in gamergate are essentially sexist, boarish, slut shaming pigs who don't like women in their little hobby. Basically a boys club. But I don't know that any of them have been making comments on far greater issues of gender equality that is broadly accepted amongst their silly little "movement". Maybe they have, I just haven't seen it. In short their sexist assholes.

You can't minimize it as "gender issues." It's the ideal that all people should be considered inherently equal. I think that's a cornerstone to both ideologies. For liberals because they actually think people should be treated equally. For Libertarians because it has to be there to underpin their ideology. Everyone has to be assumed to be of equal potential ability if they're also going to be assumed to be equally responsible for themselves.

I don't think "I haven't seen it, therefore it probably doesn't exist" is ever a good argument. Look up some of the names of GamerGate figureheads I mentioned earlier, they were all outspoken anti-feminists on broader issues before they latched onto GamerGate.

[7thangel]

You can't minimize it as "gender issues." It's the ideal that all people should be considered inherently equal. I think that's a cornerstone to both ideologies. For liberals because they actually think people should be treated equally. For Libertarians because it has to be there to underpin their ideology. Everyone has to be assumed to be of equal potential ability if they're also going to be assumed to be equally responsible for themselves.

believing in equality doesn't stop one from holding sexist, racist, homophobic views and worse, carry them out. i've met liberal anti-feminists, racists and homophobes. a lot of it is in the backstage and not out front. quite a few are the type to hand wave shit away as identity politics

libertarians...i can't take them seriously.

[Shawn Hopkins]

Most of these GG people and anti-feminists in general maintain a belief in equality of the sexes. They just think that modern feminism is about placing women above men and granting them special rights and privileges. They also think men have similar cultural assumptions placed on them that are unfair and are ignored.

If these people call themselves liberal, progressive, Democrats, etc then I don't see the point in saying they aren't. These definitions are fluid anyways and vary depending on person, region, time period, etc.

Well, that's what they say. That's what any reactionary group says, that they're actually the one being oppressed. But it's really about holding onto privilege.

The point of challenging self-identifiers is to make people exercise some self-reflection and consider their viewpoints. It can be comfortable and cozy to wrap yourself in a palatable identifier without ever examining the fact that your thoughts and actions place you well outside of it. But it's politically damaging because people end up supporting political movements and politicians that work against their best interests. See for example populist poor Southerners who support authoritarian corporatist Republicans because that party reaches them on a couple of superficial identity issues.

[7thangel]

Most of these GG people and anti-feminists in general maintain a belief in equality of the sexes. They just think that modern feminism is about placing women above men and granting them special rights and privileges. They also think men have similar cultural assumptions placed on them that are unfair and are ignored.

i think you're confusing paying lip service as a tactic vs actually believing in something.

[Shawn Hopkins]

believing in equality doesn't stop one from holding sexist, racist, homophobic views and worse, carry them out. i've met liberal anti-feminists, racists and homophobes. a lot of it is in the backstage and not out front. quite a few are the type to hand wave shit away as identity politics

libertarians...i can't take them seriously.

See, I think if one did believe in equality, in a firm and self-examined way, they wouldn't actually hold bigoted views. I think those things are contradictory. But through the magic of cognitive dissonance it does happen, you are correct.

However, if one proclaims themselves both an anti-feminist and a liberal or a libertarian, I'm sorry, but I have to point the contradiction out.

[Michael P]

They are, at bare minimum, hypocrites.

[lancerman]

They are, at bare minimum, hypocrites.

Well that goes without saying

[Shawn Hopkins]

There's also a very disturbing anti-semetic element that's followed GamerGate from the imageboards. It's very popular to call people Jews pejoratively and post images with "greedy Jew" caricatures. Here's one of Anita Sarkeesian.

http://media.tumblr.com/ef1cc98e6abb...0dgo1_1280.jpg

Anyway, this came to a head last night with GamerGate actually defending a real self-proclaimed Nazi on Twitter.

https://twitter.com/bendreyfuss

Not a good look.