All-purpose news and politics thread: Two Steps Beyond!

[Mark]

You talking about half of the country, most of them too proud to admit they don't know jack about politics.

How do you know that?

[Mark]

hegemony and empire are too diffent things, and the most powerful economy, culture and military power will always influence others even if it tried not to do so.

We were an empire, but not an evil one (despite what some think) we didn't go out to conquer enslave, but we did go out to make sure that we had our piece of the pie when all the other great powers were carving up the planet. But even while were were as benevolent as I think our principles and reality allowed we were still an empire and empires fall, given enough time.

[Arundel Armor Hunter]

Mark:

How do you know that?

Half the country votes and even fewer people folllow politics closely.

http://www.people-press.org/2007/04/...n-revolutions/

[Lucette]

I thought you said it was referencing real life events, not bizarre conspiracy theories.

A local politicians wife was one of Ewen Cameron's victims so this story played out in both the local news and Parliament hill. In fact, it was this politician, on behalf of his wife (and, eventually, 8 other plaintiffs) who sued the CIA over this and won. Cameron had a theory that if you can strip away a person's personality so that they were a blank slate then you could rebuilt from scratch. The problem was that their minds were so messed up from the process that many were damaged permanently. There was even a made for TV movie based on the case The Sleep Room. The movie used composite characters because Cameron's filing system was in only slightly better shape than the victims' minds so you knew what he did but could not be certain who got which treatments, but, for all practical purposes the Farmers are the Orlikows. In her book Shock Doctrine, Naomi Klein says that some of Cameron's treatments are now used as torture techniques by the Americans. A brave person can withstand pain and keep their wits about them - but these techniques interfere with the brain's ability to think straight.


Before David Orlikow was an MP, he was an MLA - scroll down to the heading David Orlikow, and they mention the case:

http://www.gov.mb.ca/legislature/han...b/h071b_8.html

I doubt that Ben Raab or Lobdell or Kavanagh or whoever is still working for DC even knows that story. I know I'd never heard of it. "Ultra" is an ultra common word.

Lemire is Canadian, he has to have at least heard about it.

[Carabas]

You talking about half of the country, most of them too proud to admit they don't know jack about politics.

And an embarassingly large lot of them proudly proclaiming they don't know jack about politics...

[Lucette]

I think that, especially in the States, people exist in their private bubbles each with their different information source. The people who watch Alex Jones are different from the people who watch Amy Goodman who are different from the people who watch Honey Boo Boo - and, each figures that they are getting the truth and everybody else is deluded. Note that Jones uses all sorts of scams which, even if you dropped down to earth from Mars and knew nothing about Earth, one should be able to realise that he is BSing. Why else waste 15-20 minutes saying that he is going to tell you what no one wants you to hear instead of cutting to the chase! It isn't a waste, it is to put the viewer into the mindset that what he is about to say is important and dangerous and forbidden knowledge rather than drivel.

We were an empire, but not an evil one (despite what some think) we didn't go out to conquer enslave, but we did go out to make sure that we had our piece of the pie when all the other great powers were carving up the planet.

Divvying up the spoils of war and conquest? Isn't that what getting one's piece of pie about? The pie did not belong to the great powers but to the people who lived there. These people may not be entirely happy with foreigners coming in and kicking them off their lands and taking all their resources and leaving behind a mess - no matter how polite these foreigners may be.

Take Ukraine, for instance, for too many years they have found themselves a toy that Russian and the West fought over - while they osculated between deciding which of these great powers could protect them from the other great power. And while they are trying to debate whether the tanks belong to Russia or the West, Canada and the United States are using the conflict to talk Europe into accepting tar sands oil and shale gas with the excuse of Europe not having to depend on Russia for oil. David Cameron is doing the same thing with BP who wants to do off shore drilling - using the Ukrainian troubles to promote the necessity of doing this. Ergo, it is not in the interest of either Canada, the USA or the UK to deescalate tensions in Ukraine. And as far as the sanctions go, presumably directed at Putin's inner circle - they do not apply to two Russians who have stakes in the Alberta tar sands.

But even while were were as benevolent as I think our principles and reality allowed we were still an empire and empires fall, given enough time.

Empires always have a need to see themselves as benevolent.

[Arundel Armor Hunter]

And an embarassingly large lot of them proudly proclaiming they don't know jack about politics...

Nothing wrong with that, politics was always shaped by a minority.

[Mark]

I'm not sure I believe polls. But that does match with the slow decline of the nation.

Mark:


Half the country votes and even fewer people folllow politics closely.

http://www.people-press.org/2007/04/...n-revolutions/

[Mark]

Empires always have a need to see themselves as benevolent.

True, but the US has had some good, honest deeds done in it's name. The Marshall Plan, contrast that with the plan the sovietts used, which part of Europe grew and thrived? The Peace Corps, we went to the moon and said 'We came in peace for all mankind', again not something the sovietts would have done. So while we acted in our best interest and selfishly at times we also did some good. It's sad to see that all ending. When I was a child I thought for sure we'd have a space station, a colony on the moon and be moving further out by now, that we'd have at least made some progress on clean energy on a wide scale basis, that our leaders were if not honest at least dedicated to the country. Now we have to buy space on a foreign made rocket to get to the station, we're still using gas and will be for another few decades at least and I have trouble believing that the people in congress care about anything other than their bank account. Ever read 'This Town" by Mark Leibovich? If that book is true we're in even worse shape than I thought.

[Paradox]

Arundel Armor Hunter wants us to relax:

Nothing wrong with that, politics was always shaped by a minority.

It may have "always" been like that, but that doesn't mean nothing's wrong with it. An uneducated, unaware populace is asking to be abused. That's how Fox News has snowed so many people.

[Nick Soapdish]

the PI were scheduled to be turned back to the people there in the 40s anyway, Guam and Puerto Rico can leave at a will, That doesn't make an empire.

I kinda gotta side with Mark on this one. We explicitly said that we'd allow Cuba its freedom (more or less), we didn't say the same about Guam, Puerto Rico and the Philippines and fought hard to retain the latter. I agree on the other two. Regions that are acquired by treaty and remain even with plebiscites don't count as imperialism. We didn't fight Puerto Rican forces at San Juan; it was Spanish forces.

We were an empire, but not an evil one (despite what some think) we didn't go out to conquer enslave, but we did go out to make sure that we had our piece of the pie when all the other great powers were carving up the planet. But even while were were as benevolent as I think our principles and reality allowed we were still an empire and empires fall, given enough time.

And just like that I turn on ya. I think that the Philippines would certainly disagree with you up to WWII when they gained their freedom. Up to 200,000 Filipinos died in our efforts to secure "our piece of the pie". We did a lot better around the rest of the planet, but when it came to our imperial intentions, the Philippines are the only nation where we exerted our will and we weren't benevolent.

[Arundel Armor Hunter]

It may have "always" been like that, but that doesn't mean nothing's wrong with it. An uneducated, unaware populace is asking to be abused. That's how Fox News has snowed so many people.

The biased are also asking to be abused, heck the polls had shown that the Tea Part folks you you dislike so much are likely to be educated. If the voters admit their ignorance or get educated on the issues they are not going to be abused.

I'm not sure I believe polls. But that does match with the slow decline of the nation.

Why is there a correlation. Laws are written by a small number of people and a small number of people pay close attention to it. That's how ot always had been. Voting does not really equal influence.

[Mikekerr3]

We were an empire, but not an evil one (despite what some think) we didn't go out to conquer enslave, but we did go out to make sure that we had our piece of the pie when all the other great powers were carving up the planet. But even while were were as benevolent as I think our principles and reality allowed we were still an empire and empires fall, given enough time.

The only real peoce of the Pie we had was the Philippines, and it was always the plan to let that go. We got it as a result of a war with the people that had no intent on letting it go.

[Mikekerr3]

I'm not sure I believe polls. But that does match with the slow decline of the nation.

Was it ever any better, if it wa is a decline you must think it was better at another time. Americans have not voted in large numbers since the 19th Centruty so thos number are irrelevant to your imaginary "decline"

[Mikekerr3]

I kinda gotta side with Mark on this one. We explicitly said that we'd allow Cuba its freedom (more or less), we didn't say the same about Guam, Puerto Rico and the Philippines and fought hard to retain the latter. I agree on the other two. Regions that are acquired by treaty and remain even with plebiscites don't count as imperialism. We didn't fight Puerto Rican forces at San Juan; it was Spanish forces..

We stated when we took the Philippines that we would be there for a limited time, and we set the date for Independence and started the process decades before WWII. Guam has been offer independence multiple times, the norther Marianas took it but Guam wants to stay where they are, so do a majority of the People in Puerto Rico

We did commit mass murder in the PI, bad enough that Mark W twain wrote quirte a bit about it , It was the subject of his cruelest and most biting work. The American public was never all that comfortable with having it be owned by US and there were repeated congressional attempts for make us leave. All in all it was complicated by racism and business interests conflicting with Founding basic principles , We blew it pretty bad and I think giving that up was a mark of growth and strength not a decline. Empires are frail anfd fragile things, wanting to be one is dumb as hell for a democracy.