All-purpose news and politics thread: Two Steps Beyond!

[Kirby101]

My statement was that the particular analysis Shapiro put forth regarding Charlottesville was even-handed. I didn't even agree with all of his points in it-- he actually agrees with you liberals that the Donald was playing to the Alt-Right in his "nice people" comments, while I think he was playing to less hardline conservatives with his remarks on Andrew Jackson, George Washington, et al.

I asked months ago for an example of a news agency that really analyzed the conflict in Charlottesville, and no one here offered any answers. I found one or two sources myself, but none of them were as good as Shapiro in breaking down the mutual responsibility of both protesters and counter-protesters for the violence.

Whatever Shapiro's faults, he's not nearly as brain-dead as John Oliver and Larry Wilmore.

[ouroboros]

so the media does make mistakes and jump the gun

and while no one is perfect, I think media outlets have a heightened responsibility to make sure things are as airtight as possible

there is an administration in the White House that is openly hostile to the press, and the support of about 40 percent of the country

And that's exactly what I didn't like about the coverage of Charlottesville. Instead of analyzing it in detail, and then coming to a conclusion-- which could still be, "It's still mostly the Alt-Right's fault"-- they made it all about "getting" Trump.

But IMO you can't beat Trump with his own tactics.

[ouroboros]

The alt-right is tricking you by inserting humor and GQ style into their hate. It's what makes Nazis like Milo so dangerous. They post an instruction on how to make sure a protest turns violent while allowing you to blame antifa. They include a homophobic joke, and suddenly people like you think it's all in good fun.

Brother!

"Blame the victim."

[ouroboros]

Me after reviewing a day of chuckleheads defending Nazis and NeoConfederates in this thread:



One wants the extermination of what they consider to be lesser races. The other has a majority contingent that want to revisit the Civil War, and see if the South can win and reinstitute slavery.

Both are f***ed up in their own ways. But please forgive us for speaking up and pointing that out, because we know that no matter how civil the Wannsee Conference was, while a bunch of German leaders had a nice dinner party, they still were plotting the extermination of human beings in the millions to maximize the efficiency of that genocide. And anyone who wants to downplay the endgame can show themselves to the door to go think about where their humanity went.

Your definition of Neo Confederates is a masterpiece of Orwellian doublethink.

I guess you can blame it on the Midichlorians.

[ouroboros]

If someone on another side of the issue is willing to kill innocent people, should he get to dictate the conversation due to the threat of violence?

One can't predict the actions of crazies, who may react violently to any number of stimuli that have nothing to do with any ideology. We still don't know what set off the Las Vegas killer, for instance.

But any time either ideological side attacks the other, that's a non-crazy attempt to dictate the conversation.

[ouroboros]

12:00...

Thanks for posting the video.

FWIW, I checked Snopes to see if they weighed in on Spenser's claim that the governor declared a state of emergency prior to the outbreak of violence, but they did not address that particular issue.

It would also be interesting to know if Spenser has elsewhere gone on record as being a card-carrying Nazi, since he denies it here.

Also, is it at all possible to practice any form of "white identity politics" without being accused of white supremacy?

I have a slight suspicion of what the answer to the last question will be here.

[Dalak]

Also, is it at all possible to practice any form of "white identity politics" without being accused of white supremacy?

I have a slight suspicion of what the answer to the last question will be here.

For one easy example: Oktoberfest.

Yeah I know, not the answer you were looking for.

E: Misunderstood, thought you were talking about celebrating your whiteness and cultural heritage rather than arguing that whites deserve to be recognized as much as others when rich white people are pretty much dominating most of the planet.

[beetle_booster]

Suspect only one injured. Talk of would be terrorist incompetence in creating a bomb. Occurred a little after 7:00 AM At the Port Authority Bus Terminal. As soon as people in terminal heard the sound and saw smoke they all ran for the exits, no other injuries reported.

Compare this to Las Vegas, think about it.

edit: A few people nearby went to the hospital with ringing in the ears and headaches from the sound, but nothing serious.

Yes I thought about it. The only reason why no people died is because of the incompetence of the suicide bomber. Now think about it: What would've happened if a more skilled bomber did it?

This suicide bomber clearly intended to kill multiple people. He was able to detonate his bomb. The fact that the bomb just so happened to be a bust doesn't help with the everyday folk's sense of security.

[Mister Mets]

I don't always agree with him but Michael Moore has been saying the same thing. The deplorables among the GOP...and they do exist because, hey they want Roy Moore to represent them...will never be won over. It's not worth the time, money, and effort to try in some states and counties. You have to stomp them out of relevance at the voting booth.

There are still persuadables.

Trump got 62 percent in Alabama. If Moore does worse, it suggests there are plenty of people willing to vote for Trump over Hillary Clinton but not every Republican over every Democrat.

I don't have a problem with people criticizing the Democratic party -- in fact, I think many of Tarzai's criticisms are valid with regards to how Democrats need to better incorporate progressive ideals into their platform.

My only concern in that respect is that history has shown that Democrats don't usually win Presidential elections when they run more "progressive" candidates -- they tend to win elections -- and re-elections -- when they run "centrists" like Bill Clinton and Barack Obama, which is more of an commentary on the American voters as a whole than the Democratic party itself.

In fact, "progressives" (like Dennis Kucinich in previous elections and Bernie Sanders in the last election) rarely even survive the final nomination process, so how can the argument be made that they are what the Democratic party needs when the Democratic voting base itself doesn't even support them over the "centrists"?

That said -- the bigger issue that I am pointing out is that it's a little ridiculous to keep criticizing the Democratic party for not doing enough when one of the main reasons they aren't doing more is because the Republicans are actually UNIFIED enough to block most of the "progressive" legislation they try to put forth.

Meanwhile, the Democratic party sits around fighting over issues that are really the result of the Republican party refusing to pass "progressive" legislation (such as universal health care, gay marriage rights, equal pay for women, etc).

I can almost guarantee you that if progressives would spend less energy attacking "Democrats" and more energy focusing on defeating Republicans at the voting booth, you'd see more "progressive" legislation passed than if you focused primarily on trying to force Democratic candidates to be more "progressive" in a society where the voters -- both Democratic and Republican -- have already made it clear that they don't prefer the more "progressive" nominees in general elections.

I repeat: the problem isn't that Democrats aren't "progressive" enough -- it's that they can't pass "progressive" legislation so long as Republicans are unified enough to stop them from doing so.

And most importantly -- while Tarzai frequently (and often fairly) criticizes Democrats for the shortcomings -- he did still (I believe) vote for the Democratic candidate in the election... unlike 30 who seems to complain about issues like racism and sexism, but doesn't put his vote where his mouth is.

You could look at the way centrists outperformed progressives when both were on the same ballot. For example, Hillary was closer in Wisconsin than Russ Feingold.

Until the next November, when Moore would run again. Either after winning another primary, or as an independent.

That's a different situation from a runoff between him and a Democrat. He hasn't had any primaries since the allegations came out.

The polls predicted the popular vote very precisely. They didn't account for voter suppression, possibly hacks, and the fake news effect in some swing states. It was new territory.

What hacks are you referring to?

And how does voter suppression explain Pennsylvania, a state with a Democratic Governor? Or Trump coming within two points in Minnesota, which also has a Democratic governor?

It's still looking like a close race. The popular belief is that Moore is going to win, and maybe he will but...

The last person Trump supported in Alabama lost the primary
The last time everyone was convinced that one person was going to win (Clinton), the other guy won (Trump)

So, I'm not making any predictions except that if Moore does win Alabama will end up regretting it one way or another.

In the most recent statewide elections, Democrats did better than expected. Polls in Virginia showed a close gubernatorial race, but it ended up being the Democrats' best showing since 1985 (and they've had four other governors in that time.)

One can't predict the actions of crazies, who may react violently to any number of stimuli that have nothing to do with any ideology. We still don't know what set off the Las Vegas killer, for instance.

But any time either ideological side attacks the other, that's a non-crazy attempt to dictate the conversation.

Fair enough.

This is an argument that's seen on all sides. Quite a few conservatives are pissed at the idea that Trump should be blamed for anyone getting radicalized due to the Jerusalem decision.

[Jack Dracula]

That's the story some may miss...the conservative grassroots and its Trump-like passion for Moore. I was surprised how many non-Alabamians knew of Moore and loved him.

Well, Moore can't take his dates across state lines but he can still broadcast his bigotry and ignorance.
Not sure why you'd be so surprised by all of those rednecks supporting him. That's your party's voting base.

[mojotastic]

EU, Japan and US to ramp up trade pressure on China


https://www.ft.com/content/5f0aad90-...4-0a1e63a52f9c

The EU, Japan and the US are set to announce a new alliance to take on China more aggressively over trade issues such as overcapacity in steel and forced technology transfers, in a rare effort at international economic co-operation by the Trump administration.*

In a statement due to be issued on Tuesday on the sidelines of a World Trade Organization meeting, the three economies will target the “severe excess capacity” in important sectors like steel and the role of illegal subsidies, state financing and state-owned enterprises in fuelling it, according to a draft read to the Financial Times.*

Also targeted are the rules in countries such as China that require foreign investors to hand over important proprietary technologies or house content and data on local servers.*

The statement will not name China. But it reflects all three economies’ growing angst about its continuing economic rise, officials said. It also addresses two of the Trump administration’s main complaints against China — its flooding of global markets with cheap steel, aluminium and other commodities and the way it is using intellectual property rules to acquire strategic technologies.*

Mr Trump and his aides have lashed out at China and revived US trade statutes to launch controversial investigations that could lead to punitive tariffs and other trade sanctions.*

But the EU and Japan have been seeking to talk the administration out of unilateral action, arguing that co-operating with the EU and countries like Japan would better serve US interests and do more to raise pressure on Beijing.*

The goal is to stave off a feared surge in protectionism. A new study due to be released on Tuesday by Simon Evenett, a researcher at St Gallen University in Switzerland, is set to show that protectionist measures introduced since the 2008 global financial crisis have caused the growth of EU exports to stall.*


Subsidies, Mr Evenett said, have been a major component of that. “This isn't the protectionist mix our forefathers would have recognised and reflects the holes in the WTO's rule book, especially as they relate to subsidies,” he said.*

EU officials are also keen to convince the Trump administration to embrace the WTO as a venue for fighting its trade battles rather than going it alone. Tuesday’s statement is due to call for “enhancing trilateral co-operation in the WTO”, according to one EU official.*

The move comes amid a combative biennial meeting of ministers from the WTO’s 164 member countries in Buenos Aires. Many see the Trump administration’s assault on the institution as casting a dark cloud.

Addressing his fellow ministers on Monday, US trade representative Robert Lighthizer said the WTO faced “serious challenges” including “losing its essential focus on negotiation and becoming a litigation-centred organisation”. He called for the WTO to do more to focus on issues like chronic industrial overcapacity and the role of state-owned enterprises in distorting global trade.*

He also complained about WTO rules that allow China and other major emerging economies special treatment that exempts them from certain requirements.

“If in the opinion of a vast majority of members playing by current WTO rules makes it harder to achieve economic growth, then clearly serious reflection is needed,” he said.*

Mr Lighthizer did not mention a US bid to force change in a WTO dispute-settlement arm that it sees as too interventionist.*

Because the US is now blocking the filling of vacancies on its appellate body as members’ terms run out, one of the main subjects of discussion on the sidelines in Buenos Aires has been what many fear is a US bid to dismantle the dispute system. Monday marked the final day of a Belgian member’s four-year term, leaving the appellate panel with just four of its seven judges in place.

In meetings with fellow ministers Mr Lighthizer has continued to lay out the US’s complaints about the dispute system. But he has not offered any potential solutions, officials say.*

[4saken1]

One can't predict the actions of crazies, who may react violently to any number of stimuli that have nothing to do with any ideology. We still don't know what set off the Las Vegas killer, for instance.

But any time either ideological side attacks the other, that's a non-crazy attempt to dictate the conversation.

Actually, people with mental illness are no more likely to commit violent acts than those without.

Fact: The vast majority of people with mental health problems are no more likely to be violent than anyone else. Most people with mental illness are not violent and only 3%-5% of violent acts can be attributed to individuals living with a serious mental illness.

AFAIK, we don't know if the Vegas shooter suffered from mental illness, do we? Just that he did something that seems 'crazy' to the rest of us.

[InformationGeek]

Well, the Rally for Moore is going on and... well, his wife said this:

Fake news will tell you that we don’t care for Jews. One of our attorneys is a Jew!

I'm soooo not a racist by the way. I leave comments on forums like this with people of color all the time! :P


Also, you were probably not suppose to applaud at that people.

[Tendrin]

Well, the Rally for Moore is going on and... well, his wife said this:



I'm soooo not a racist by the way. I leave comments on forums like this with people of color all the time! :P


Also, you were probably not suppose to applaud at that people.

https://twitter.com/kira_lerner/stat...30834733068289


It got so much worse.

[Tendrin]

https://twitter.com/kira_lerner/stat...30834733068289


It got so much worse.

Anyone in for a booze pot for WBE when he has to write Moore’s profile again?