All-purpose news and politics thread: Two Steps Beyond!

[Mister Mets]

Since the people in charge already choose to enforce or not enforce laws based on the whims of their leadership, why is so strange to ask that law enforcement - which already had an overwhelming, militaristic presence - not target one side of a 'debate' by using a law meant to combat the OTHER SIDE OF THE 'DEBATE'? How about, instead of proving Antifa right by acting like jackbooted thugs, they just...I dunno...be present and only act if something happens, instead of targeting antifa for protecting their identities from a political (partisan) group that has ties to people who have gone on shooting sprees and driven cars into crowds and stuff.



I didn't and do not "justify death threats." What I said was that Dana Loesch has used her public platform to call for violence against her 'enemies'. Huffpost has not, Maxine Waters has not, yet both of them get regular death threats. But, yeah, I mean, God forbid a failed actress turned gun manufacturer shill reap some of the threat of violence that she sowed in others.

Let me be CRYSTAL CLEAR: Death threats are unacceptable. Period. I don't care who issues them, I don't care why. The second you threaten someone's life, your argument is over and you lose. But it is VERY, VERY clear that in this day and age, in this reality, ONE side of the political spectrum not only MAKES threats, but often carries those threats out. To the extent that they are clearly in the majority, and are the more extant threat to America.



And Maxine's comments were in regards to Sarah Huckabee Sanders being asked to leave a restaurant. One calls for violence against his enemies. One calls for inconvenience. One is given a pass by pretty much everyone on the Right. Why? Because he is the party's leader, and no one falls in line like a Republican. The other is not, because...why? Because she's on the left? A woman? A BLACK woman?



"Partisan: 1. prejudiced in favor of a particular cause."

Partisan does not mean 'targeting one political group or another." It literally means what I used it to mean, and applies to EVERYTHING that white, cis/het 'bad actor/lone wolf' types do on behalf of the right wing pundits, pols and hacks who spread disinformation and lies to a willfully undereducated base who has guns and anger enough to act on the things they hear. Fascism is a cause. Murdering 'abortionists' is a cause. Racism is a cause. Hating queers is a cause. All are causes your side of the spectrum embraces gleefully.

Pizzagate. Remember that? That was Right Wing media (aka PARTISAN media) drumming up a nothingburger until a RIGHT WING (partisan) nutjob went into a place and threatened people with an assault rifle.

Tiller the Killer. Remember that? That was Right Wing media (aka PARTISAN media) - specifically, Bill O'Reilly - repeating, day in and day out, that a man who performed legal medical procedures was a murderer. Openly stating how blood was on his hands until a RIGHT WING (partisan) nuttjob went to Tiller's church and SHOT. HIM. IN. CHURCH. I think that's much more vile a partisan act than shooting politicians at a baseball game (though, if it isn't clear, I think BOTH are disgusting and wrong.)

Ronnie Paris, Gabriel Fernandez and Anthony Avalos. CHILDREN, ranging in age from THREE YEARS OLD to TEN. Murdered by their parents, sometimes after MONTHS of torture. Why? Was it because of illegal immigrants? Socialism? Economic unrest? No. It was because right wing media (aka PARTISAN media) never stops welcoming religious zealots who repeat, over and over, how sick, disgusting, evil, perverted, wicked, depraved, sinful, gross, deserving of death gay people are, and they were 'worried' that their son - their CHILD - might be gay.

You are essentially concern-trolling from one side of your mouth that the nastiest partisan act in recent history is a SINGLE EVENT from a disgruntled member of the left with no evidence tying him to any extremist group or violent literature (unless you call MSNBC extremist)...What Hodgkinson was is simple to understand (not excuse, mind you): a man with easy, legal access to weapons of mass destruction, disgruntled at his perceived failures and the direction he saw the country going, takes out his anger on the people he blames for his problems (many of whom likely actually DID vote for bills which made life harder for people like Hodgkinson) and commits suicide by cop rather than return home in disgrace. Tragic. Monstrous. Inexcuseable. A PERFECT example of an ISOLATED INCIDENT.

That you then, out of the OTHER side of your mouth, try to downplay the VASTLY LARGER pool of people from your side doing the same thing or worse - to INNOCENT people, not anyone actually connected to the things making them angry and miserable - is sad. There is this fantasy world where leftists are going out shooting and killing poor, innocent Republicans left and right, and then there is REALITY in which guys from your side of the political spectrum are CONSTANTLY going on shooting sprees (seemingly every other week...), murdering their leaderships opponents for them and/or innocent bystanders, calling for violence against their opponents, torturing their children 'for Jesus!', calling for the death of this or that minority, turning a blind eye to rape and assault, ripping children from their parents because 'the law!', lock those children in cages, drug them, make toddlers stand trial, turn a blind eye to solutions regarding gun violence for political (and monetary) reasons, and the like, it becomes clear that no amount of evidence will sway you to stand up and acknowledge the cancer at your party's core.



This isn't a major issue to you, a straight, white, republican male. It IS a major issue to minorities who are targeted by these acts of partisan violence. It is an issue those of us on the left who keep getting called terrorists for punching fascists while actual domestic terrorists get coddled by fellow cis/het white males. It's a major issue when you try to use a SINGLE EXAMPLE of a leftie going nuts to damn us all, while ignoring the PLETHORA of them CONSTANTLY happening from your side of things.



They are members of the base of your party, and proudly so. They are indicative of the type of Republican your guy in the Oval Office has empowered and provoked. And you know that.

Note: The post was reaching the character limits, so I removed some paragraphs from the quote of your comments.

Laws are supposed to be enforced for all sides, even if one side sucks. If your concern is that the police pick sides too often, encouraging them to pick the right side this once rather than to follow the law consistently seems to offer license for them to eventually go after your side.

Maxine Waters' harshest critics will claim she's using dog whistles as well. It's an easy way to avoid engaging with someone's arguments. The media does seem more supportive of Maxine Waters than Trump on the civility question, which could suggest there's less of a need to criticize Trump on that. Her stated opinion about creating crowds whenever an official goes out in public goes beyond inconvenience.

In a discussion about news and politics, partisan is generally about political views. For Americans, that's largely Democrats VS Republicans, as well as the various other arguments (libertarian Republicans VS more socially conservative types, moderate Democrats VS the open socialists.)

As for the examples you give of things that might top the shooting of Republicans as a nasty recent political event...
- Tiller's death was over nine years ago. It's not recent.
- Religious bigotry isn't necessarily partisan. The Sikh Temple Shooter did not have recent ties to mainstream American politicians.
- Homophobic parents doing terrible things to their children isn't a partisan issue either.
- I could get the argument about the death of Heather Heyer being a nastier partisan event. That's a bit different in that it was an escalation of a conflict, but the distinction may not be very meaningful.

If we're talking about the nastiest event in a particular category, it would often be a single act by definition. The solutions to violence aren't just thoughts and prayers, but condemnation and prosecution. The man who killed Heather Heyer is going to be in jail for a long time.

You do seem to be exaggerating the level of the problem, even compared to your own statistics, talking about how events with multiple fatalities seem to happen every other week when twenty people died last year.

I didn't use the example of a crazy leftie to damn the left. I was using the logic of an argument that compared death threats to what Maxine Waters said.

Determining where to focus energy isn't about being a cis white male. More men and women of color, more gay men and women, etc. will die and fail to reach their potential if we waste too much energy on something that won't save as many lives as focusing on the alternatives.

As for the people you saw in the store, your comments that "This is the Republican base." suggested that all Republicans are like that, which is a different argument than that some Republicans are nasty and should be disempowered.

[aja_christopher]

Note: The post was reaching the character limits, so I removed some paragraphs from the quote of your comments.

Laws are supposed to be enforced for all sides, even if one side sucks. If your concern is that the police pick sides too often, encouraging them to pick the right side this once rather than to follow the law consistently seems to offer license for them to eventually go after your side.

Maxine Waters' harshest critics will claim she's using dog whistles as well. It's an easy way to avoid engaging with someone's arguments. The media does seem more supportive of Maxine Waters than Trump on the civility question, which could suggest there's less of a need to criticize Trump on that. Her stated opinion about creating crowds whenever an official goes out in public goes beyond inconvenience.

This depends on which "media" you follow -- especially in a world where many Americans (i.e. voters) have tuned out the "mainstream" outlets, often specifically at the behest of their president (Trump).

Regardless, "proxy fighting" (Maxine vs. Trump, Milo vs. Maher, etc) solves nothing -- regardless of your political ideology, the reality is that we are dealing with a right-wing takeover of our government that is rooted in lies, bigotry, deception and possibly outright treason, and which now threatens -- via unfunded tax cuts and international trade wars -- to upend the entire global economy with completely unpredictable results.

Back to the point at hand: while I agree that -- in theory -- the law should be enforced equally and objectively on "both sides", the reality is that many officers of the law do tend to lean towards the right-wing authoritarian end of the spectrum and the FBI has already indicated that the white supremacist infiltration of our police forces is a "threat to our national security".

Maybe when that imbalance is addressed, you'll see less people on the "left" complaining about law enforcement, but as it stands we live in a world where a white man can shoot up a church or a school and walk out unscathed while a black man can be shot and killed just for reaching for his ID or shopping at a Wal Mart.



The cops then went on to harass the man's wife after killing her husband in cold blood -- none of the officers in question were indicted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooti..._III#Aftermath

Like I keep saying -- many conservative ideals sound good on paper (or in text) but in reality they are an entirely different thing altogether.

[Iron Maiden]

Jeez, yeah.

Bill Maher has been doing this nonsense, to somewhat "Left" degree, since back when cassettes were still a viable sales medium.

To the best of my knowledge, it has got almost nothing done.

If I really need "Democrat" Tucker Carlson/Ann Coulter", I'll let you know.

Until then, there is zero doubt in my mind that the energy that would be put into that endeavor wouldn't be better spent elsewhere.

I know Maher gets bashed here a lot but I don't think I would put him in the same category as the talking heads at Fox or Rush Limbaugh. Have you ever looked at his guest lists over the years? I give him credit for having guests both conservative and liberal, at least those who agree to come on the show. And even though he is basically a comedian, he at least does a better job at giving both sides a shot at expressing their POV. IMO the discourse is freewheeling and informative but there's not many shows where conservatives and liberals can share a laugh together. If that's the only thing his show accomplishes, IMO that's a good thing.

[Malvolio]

I know Maher gets bashed here a lot but I don't think I would put him in the same category as the talking heads at Fox or Rush Limbaugh. Have you ever looked at his guest lists over the years? I give him credit for having guests both conservative and liberal, at least those who agree to come on the show. And even though he is basically a comedian, he at least does a better job at giving both sides a shot at expressing their POV. IMO the discourse is freewheeling and informative but there's not many shows where conservatives and liberals can share a laugh together. If that's the only thing his show accomplishes, IMO that's a good thing.

Not only that, but when a guest, left, right or in-between, spouts something that Maher reads as bullshit, he doesn't just "leave it there," as other hosts might do. He calls them on it. That goes for Michael Moore just as much as it does for Ann Coulter.

[Trey Strain]

This was the Republicans' plan all along -- to cut taxes for the rich, then scream that the deficit was ballooning and demand to balance it by cutting Medicaid and Medicare for the poor. But the Democrats' leaders and the news media are too busy ridiculously demanding the abolition of ICE to pay any attention to this, which would be a winning issue for the Democrats.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.fe7c73dca92d

[worstblogever]

I know Maher gets bashed here a lot but I don't think I would put him in the same category as the talking heads at Fox or Rush Limbaugh. Have you ever looked at his guest lists over the years? I give him credit for having guests both conservative and liberal, at least those who agree to come on the show. And even though he is basically a comedian, he at least does a better job at giving both sides a shot at expressing their POV. IMO the discourse is freewheeling and informative but there's not many shows where conservatives and liberals can share a laugh together. If that's the only thing his show accomplishes, IMO that's a good thing.

He was willing to give a platform to a s*** like Milo Yiannopolous.

Maher thinks he's doing a service by bringing loons on to embarrass themselves, not realizing that he only is lionizing them to folks on the fringe, and normalizing them. The fact that he'll actually permit them wto go on Anti-Islamic rants... and even argue the same narratives is not a good thing. Hell, he used the n-word on air, and then the next week, invited his "black friend" out to help him explain why he's not racist. It... looked worse. Like, the details of Maher off camera, and in his personal life, he's by no stretch intolerant, but for whatever reason, when he does exhibit abhorrent behavior, he thinks he should get a pass for what good he's done, or what liberal leanings he has. And that's not a good way to conduct oneself.

I would not be upset if HBO let his contract expire, by any stretch. He's not the worst, but in no way should be be above reproach.

[worstblogever]

This was the Republicans' plan all along -- to cut taxes for the rich, then scream that the deficit was ballooning and demand to balance it by cutting Medicaid and Medicare for the poor. But the Democrats' leaders and the news media are too busy ridiculously demanding the abolition of ICE to pay any attention to this, which would be a winning issue for the Democrats.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.fe7c73dca92d

A poster with a long history of anti-immigration posts is upset that Democrats have a real justified argument against Trump immigration policies like locking kids in cages, so he's going to try and convince them it's not worth fighting, and that they only can focus on one issue at a time to divide them.

Democrats can campaign on both failures of the right, on immigration and the economy. Especially considering the issues of taxes, deficits, and immigration can be linked. If the millions people who are here illegally were granted citizenship, they would be paying taxes, and helping close that deficit. And if you don't like amnesty, you fine them for the crime, and use that money to close the deficit as well, per John McCain and Ted Kennedy's immigration bill circa 2007.

[Kirby101]

Actually, illegal immigrants pay billions in taxes each year.
https://www.vox.com/2018/4/13/172290...ants-pay-taxes

Though immigration is an issue that should be addressed, it is not really a major problem for this country. It is either a net equal or a net positive and not the big problem Trump has made it. He found people to villify to grab his white base.
There are so many much much more pressing problems that need addressing, including income inequity, climate change and health care. Immigration should be way down the list.

[Malvolio]

He was willing to give a platform to a s*** like Milo Yiannopolous.

Maher thinks he's doing a service by bringing loons on to embarrass themselves, not realizing that he only is lionizing them to folks on the fringe, and normalizing them. The fact that he'll actually permit them wto go on Anti-Islamic rants... and even argue the same narratives is not a good thing. Hell, he used the n-word on air, and then the next week, invited his "black friend" out to help him explain why he's not racist. It... looked worse. Like, the details of Maher off camera, and in his personal life, he's by no stretch intolerant, but for whatever reason, when he does exhibit abhorrent behavior, he thinks he should get a pass for what good he's done, or what liberal leanings he has. And that's not a good way to conduct oneself.

I would not be upset if HBO let his contract expire, by any stretch. He's not the worst, but in no way should be be above reproach.

I don't think anyone should be banned from the public debate. Again, I would rather have scumbags like Yiannopolous on Maher's show, where at least he'll be confronted than Wolf Blitzer's show, where he would simply spout his views and have it just lie there.

[Tendrin]

I don't think anyone should be banned from the public debate. Again, I would rather have scumbags like Yiannopolous on Maher's show, where at least he'll be confronted than Wolf Blitzer's show, where he would simply spout his views and have it just lie there.

Milo: I can't wait for journalists to get shot!
Milo after Annapolis: I was just kidding, guys!

He also got banned from Paypal for sending a jewish journalist 14.88.

There's really no good excuse to have him ANYWHERE. All it does is help him.

[aja_christopher]

This was the Republicans' plan all along -- to cut taxes for the rich, then scream that the deficit was ballooning and demand to balance it by cutting Medicaid and Medicare for the poor.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.fe7c73dca92d

So why aren't you criticizing them instead of the "Dems".

Expecting elected officials -- whether "democrat" or "conservative" -- to keep your government in check is like expecting wolves to guard the henhouse and sitting around repeatedly complaining about the Democrats when it's the Republicans who are selling your future down the river is not a solution.

If you're really that upset about it then get out and protest what you obviously know the Republicans are doing: you don't have to be (or even support) the Democrats to take a stand against a direct attack on the sanctity of our democracy, but sitting around criticizing "Democrats" when it's the Republicans you claim are the problem is beyond futile, if not inherently self-destructive.

[Darkspellmaster]

Regarding the news from Florida, I'm really not at all duprised by the actions of the Cuban community down there. They are on the 3rd or 4th generation already, so it's become less of a vote for the Cuban to represent you as, vote for the person that will stand up for your ideals and rights. And if that person happens to be white, than so be it.

About the March, I'm pretty sure if the weather was better in some places you'd be seeing double the numbers.

I'm gonna sound stuiped here with this, but WPP, a good number of us whites would like to have others chow down as equals. It's like lumping everyone together, were not all ass clowns.

Mather really should no better than to allow for such rants. Also, Milo is a cowardly shit who probably if he met someone like Fred Rogers wouldn't be able to look him in the eye.

Speaking of, I saw won't you be my neighbor yesterday. Not a dry eye in the house, lots of kids there and they were asking the right sorts of questions. Really we need more Fred Rogers in this world.

[aja_christopher]

Maher's already been put on watch for his behavior -- by Wayne Brady no less.

Regarding the news from Florida, I'm really not at all duprised by the actions of the Cuban community down there. They are on the 3rd or 4th generation already, so it's become less of a vote for the Cuban to represent you as, vote for the person that will stand up for your ideals and rights. And if that person happens to be white, than so be it.

I wasn't that surprised by the news -- that's the status quo for a lot of places in SoCal where you have reps from every background.

Texas will probably go that way as well in the not too distant future -- the more diversity you have, the more diversity you have in the candidate pool as well.

[Username taken]

Actually, illegal immigrants pay billions in taxes each year.
https://www.vox.com/2018/4/13/172290...ants-pay-taxes

Though immigration is an issue that should be addressed, it is not really a major problem for this country. It is either a net equal or a net positive and not the big problem Trump has made it. He found people to villify to grab his white base.
There are so many much much more pressing problems that need addressing, including income inequity, climate change and health care. Immigration should be way down the list.

Quoted in agreement.

[Tazirai]

Democrats LOVE to spout unity unity. Unless an actual Progressive runs and wins.
Then they call out the civility police on those Progressives.
They say don't attack the Democrat, it divides the party.

Then Nancy Pelosi and Tammy Duckworth Immediately Poo Poo on Ocasio-Cortez.

Ocasio-Cortez energized the base too much, with her pie in the sky policies I guess. The Establishment hates that.
They attacked Bernies Policy positions needlessly instead of inviting his ideas. But they could Dismiss him since he wasn't a DEMOCRAT.

But Ocasio Cortez IS a Democrat, what's the excuse now? Yeah, yeah, Duckworth is a vet (So am I), She's a wounded soldier (and...), she should be listened to about Ocasio-Cortez. Why?


Democrats LOVE TO LOSE!! With their #McResistance Let's resist guys, Hey Maxine, can you just be civil and tone it down some?
Hey, Bernie, your ideas are too liberal (Even though many states, including mine, are adopting many of your ideas.)
Hey, Ocasio-Cortez those Ideas don't win the Midwest. (Sure they don't.)

God the Establishment SUCKS!

Ocasio-Cortez responds to Dem senator who said policies 'too far to the left' don't win in Midwest


Loved her response even though some of the Hillary Supporters say they will not support her now, because she said Bernies name, and for some reason, they never researched or Googled her to know she worked for the man.

But Bernie-Bros right? (I guess Ocasio-Cortez is a white male Bros also?)

With respect to the Senator, strong, clear advocacy for working class Americans isn’t just for the Bronx.

Sen. Sanders won:
- Michigan
- Minnesota
- Kansas
- Nebraska
- Wisconsin
- Indiana

We then lost several of those states in the general. What’s the plan to prevent a repeat?