Team Green vs Team Red

[The Dork Knight]

Which fight do you mean?
The one where Hulk was mind-controlled by Abyss?
Wouldn't really call that a *fight* Hulk sucker punched him and that was it.

Ah yes not to mention Hulk himself was shown lying senseless shortly after

Also it seems Hulk : Let the battle begin may not be canon which is the other instance I was thinking of

That aside he has plenty of feats to show him being Thor's equal or better strength wise

[The Dork Knight]

Beyond this,

I also wouldn't put much stock in the Battleworld/Secret Wars stuff. Doc Green doing a thing once does not a consistent feat make.

Doc Green's only be around for so long and his other stuff like completely no selling Danvers' punches is pretty impressive . Nothing really contradicts the feat

That aside Hulk has in recent years , pulled back the tectonic plates of a planet larger than earth back together to stop the planet from exploding and held together a machine that stopped a larger than earth celestial till the machine itself broke down among other feats . That's easily Thor level

[Captain Morgan]

Hal's a dick. Every time I get close to not thinking that, new evidence keeps me in camp "you're a dick, Hal".

Beyond that, er ... well, Thor had his liver transmuted to broken glass and then proceeded to spit his liver at Malekith? The guy is consistently more durable than he is strong. So, I mean, being poked in the inner ear is nice and all, but it's not exactly going to win a fight, here.

I don't see Thor especially more durable than post crisis Superman... Whom both Hal and John have functionally one shotted.

But yeah, Hal is a dick.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

Doc Green's only be around for so long and his other stuff like completely no selling Danvers' punches is pretty impressive . Nothing really contradicts the feat

Danvers, is, at best and being largely generous, a Class 80. Not saying much.

That aside Hulk has in recent years , pulled back the tectonic plates of a planet larger than earth back together to stop the planet from exploding and held together a machine that stopped a larger than earth celestial till the machine itself broke down among other feats . That's easily Thor level

So two more feats.

Asterisks aplenty on what I assume is the Exitar thing. Tectonic plate thing hasn't exactly been supported in a way that'd lend towards him being that strong without being sufficiently pissed. Which I mentioned as being his issue, here.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

That aside he has plenty of feats to show him being Thor's equal or better strength wise

Tee hee.

Like amped Hulk getting his ass handed to him in a Punch-Out with a dying Thor?

[Captain Morgan]

I think CBR (and the Internet in general) tends to over estimate the elasticity of Hulk's strength and underestimate his base line. The fact is that most of the time when he is fighting someone, or having his transformation triggered, the guy is pretty angry. I would say his base line is closer to Thor than Wonderman, and he seems to have little problem rocketing past that in short order.

[The Dork Knight]

Jordan failed to keep the planet from exploding in a contextless and noncanon future story where the Earth was basically rupturing from some unknown force. That doesn't really have any bearing on anything.

Jordan's ring ran out of charge trying to stop the very specific force of Krona ripping apart the planet in the canon story , Trinity, issue 49.

In a canon story line, Jordan's ring (actually, a duplicate so technically with half the charge) was used to stabilize the Earth from exploding just fine. (Legends of the DC Universe 29.)

Stabilising =/= literally stopping a force that is actively trying to rip apart the planet

Hal also used a planet sized construct to hold the continents in place in one story line.

Rookie Hal stopped continents from colliding in JLA year one , with difficulty . Continents are less than 0.1% of the earths mass or volume or something IIRC

Didn't read the John example.

John Stewart held the earth together along with Alan Scott after the Mxy twins removed Gravity in Adventures of Superman 618 . Though to be fair , now that I have rechecked it , he was merely struggling, the ring didn't run out of charge

Kyle had some of the greatest post crisis Lantern feats of all time.

Not arguing he didn't

Not just stuff like Ultraman (who, by the way, has gone even with Superman more than once, and only got stomped by Superman with the combined skills of Wonder Woman and Batman. And there is no shame in losing to J'onn)

Superman when not possessing those powers also put him in a full nelson which he was unable to get out of despite yelling " I'll kill you ! " to the point where he just gave up trying shortly after in Adventures of Superman 605 just of the top of my head . Aside from the one JLA arc where the Syndicate beat the League there isn't much evidence of them being on quite the same level as the big 7. Especially given that in that arc their GL who was unable to do anything about Kyle's force field in the original story straight up overpowered John Stewart in the fight

but against non-opponent cosmic events, which frankly make for better rumbles feats anyway. His feats for raw power (and the strength of his constructs) are way better than Post Crisis Superman. Kyle's constructs being broken is probably a combination of PIS, his rookie days, and a manifestation of his hero worship of the JLA and complex about surpassing Hal Jordan. He eventually got over those last two, but the S-Shield still causes most of the DCU to job to it.

Agree with all of that except for the fact that super speed must be factored in , in any Kryptonian vs Lantern fight

Aside from that Kyle isn't the GL here , and the others aren't quite as powerful as him AND they have to focus on multiple opponents at the same time here

As for Hal and John, it's been a while since I went through their compiled feats. Without their esoteric stuff this is a tougher fight for them. But Hal still has stuff like making planet sized constructs more than once, including to move the planet with Superman, and generating bombs which knock out Superman.

And that's fine but every time he's used a planet sized construct it's been an effort for him . It's nothing like Kyle doing things like that casually . So , close enough to say Thor here . Except he also has to deal with Wonder Woman , Orion etc . Which is where it starts to get difficult for him

Also the only time I can think of when Hal KOd Supes with a bomb was when he was full on Parallax, original flavour while simultaneously bitching out various heavy hitters ( including Jonn and ...Kyle)

John has effortlessly trapped the Martian Manhunter in a construct and left him stuck on the other side of a planet.

The planet then exploded along with the star it was orbiting , while facing a yellow weakness and auto shields alone survived that casually ( as well as Jonn in the bubble ) .do you not think this an outlier for John given what he otherwise struggles with and has had his shields broken by ?

He's also disabled Superman via one precise shot to the eyes. The Lanterns can unleash class 100 force, but in any direction of their choosing and with a level of precision that should make the bricks fairly easy picking.

Speed is equalized here though so it's not exactly going to be as easy as that. And again, multiple opponents , multiple targets , lesser force, ( probably ) lesser accuracy too . Plus once they get close , things are going to get pretty bad for the Lanterns. Not to mention wasn't the Superman thing when he was Parallax'd ?

Hell, Hal has performed brain surgery while staving off mental assault, just so someone could feel him punch them in the face. How is Thor or Orion going to enjoy construct needles stabbing them in the inner ear with all the power Hal can muster?

Not very much I suspect but not enough to KO them either given Hal will have to focus on both of them and split energy for the same

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

I think CBR (and the Internet in general) tends to over estimate the elasticity of Hulk's strength and underestimate his base line. The fact is that most of the time when he is fighting someone, or having his transformation triggered, the guy is pretty angry. I would say his base line is closer to Thor than Wonderman, and he seems to have little problem rocketing past that in short order.

Rocketing past it or no, his base-line isn't high enough to exactly compete here. The only reason the win would come through at this point is because of the Lanterns.

As far as base-line goes, that heavily depends on setting. Outside of which, Thor had no trouble throwing down with Nul, a Hulk that was both very angry, and in possession of a power amplification. Which is pretty consistent with their record as a whole, even in the way back, Thor did things like grapple with the Hulk for an hour matching him as he amped, etc. His base might be higher than it was back then, but his strength isn't shooting past anyone here fast enough for it to matter. Basically, without the ability to play keep away provided by the Lantern, Hulk would get trounced rather quickly, not giving him the chance to amp. Since they're here, the rest of team green can twiddle their thumbs and Hulk can get huffy about something or other.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

But even with the amp, Hulk isn't exactly worth much here.

[Anarchist]

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not denying that Hulk, who is getting pissed can match or even surpass Thor.
The problem is, Thor, in most of these fights, just slaps him around without finishing the job and let's Hulk get to that point, which is some serious PIS.

And here, even with equalized speed, it shouldn't come to that when he fights smart. Like said before, his current base strength form is a little bit all over the place, but regarding Doc Green, in his own solo title (which, for me, is the to-go book for the title character) he got his ass beaten by Red Hulk and had to get training to win the rematch.
Him one-shotting Carol Danvers? Fine, no problem.
Him being supposedly Thor-Level based on that? Not so much.

[moonknight11]

I'm only vaguely aware of what was going on in his own title, is his asskicking by a fellow class 100 a thing that regularly happens to him?

Wonder Man was able to kind of easily handle Red Hulk via skill. He might take Doc Green. Did the IF training vastly improve Doc Greens hth?

[The Dork Knight]

Danvers, is, at best and being largely generous, a Class 80. Not saying much.

Yeah but as I said nothing actively contradicting the shaking the planet feat

So two more feats.

Asterisks aplenty on what I assume is the Exitar thing.

Even with asterisks that's solidly a planetary scale feat

Tectonic plate thing hasn't exactly been supported in a way that'd lend towards him being that strong without being sufficiently pissed. Which I mentioned as being his issue, here.

And ....Pak's Hulk has been sufficiently pissed ever since . Things like shaking the eastern seaboard with his footsteps, overpowering the likes of Hercules , slowing down the Juggernaut , shaking the eastern seaboard again the moment he transformed back and easily beating Skaar while holding back , while shrugging off punches containing the kinetic energy of the lithosphere or something , coming close to triggering the San Andreas fault as a side effect of powering up , getting into a punching contest with Hyperion and not losing till Abyss' mental control was broken , overpowering Red Hulk after he's absorbed his radiation, overpowering Sue Storm's force fields, tossing Fing Fang Foom to the moon when not really angry etc

Edit : the red hulk fight contradicts Doc Green's feat ...I guess

[The Dork Knight]

Rocketing past it or no, his base-line isn't high enough to exactly compete here. The only reason the win would come through at this point is because of the Lanterns.

His " baseline" was good enough to match Thor for hours in strength even a few decades ago . Why should it not be good enough now ?

As far as base-line goes, that heavily depends on setting. Outside of which, Thor had no trouble throwing down with Nul, a Hulk that was both very angry, and in possession of a power amplification.

Thor had plenty of trouble and only BFRd him ....barely in the end That aside Nul is basically a featless Hulk who struggled with 100x Jupiter's gravity or something so that's not ....quite all that

Otherwise you are saying someone who can otherwiss stalemate him for an hour in pure strength , when amped and backed by an amped Ben Grimn ....will be dealt with , with " no trouble" by Thor not using any of his more exotic abilities ? How does that even make sense

Which is pretty consistent with their record as a whole, even in the way back, Thor did things like grapple with the Hulk for an hour matching him as he amped, etc.

How is that " consistent" ? Say , in the first 10 minutes of the fight at least....we basically have a " baseline" Hulk vs a baseline Thor....who can only match him . So Thor is both equal to a baseline Hulk and an amped Hulk ? Wut?

Or y'know Hulk doesn't get amped quite so fast and it was basically Thor vs normal Hulk , and both were strength equals. I don't remember it ever being mentioned that he was getting angrier and stronger in that particular fight either

In any case , Hulk has other showings of straight up overpowering Thor physically when not exactly amped, so it's not like there aren't contradictory showings

His base might be higher than it was back then, but his strength isn't shooting past anyone here fast enough for it to matter. Basically, without the ability to play keep away provided by the Lantern, Hulk would get trounced rather quickly, not giving him the chance to amp. Since they're here, the rest of team green can twiddle their thumbs and Hulk can get huffy about something or other.

Hulk did not get trounced " quickly " any time he faced Thor except for hammer and sinew and the second fight in the 2001 annual ( incidentally he was shown overpowering Thor physically in both of the other two fights ) , so a supposedly amped version backed by an amped Ben getting thrashed makes no sense . Well he didn't exactly get " thrashed " but even losing makes no sense given their history

[The Dork Knight]

If we are talking about amped showings there was the time Hulk ran even with a warrior madness Thor in Incredible Hulk 440

[Captain Morgan]

Jordan's ring ran out of charge trying to stop the very specific force of Krona ripping apart the planet in the canon story , Trinity, issue 49.



Stabilising =/= literally stopping a force that is actively trying to rip apart the planet

I didn't read Trinity, and Krona's power is all over the place, but the weakest I've ever seen him was more powerful than a Guardian, and at his top end he's mucking about with universes. If Hal failed to stop him from being able to destroy the planet... OK? It's not like the people on this list have planet busted. Their top end strength feats tend to cap out "stabilize a planet from being ripped apart by tectonic forces" which Hal and other Lanterns can do.

The Krona example, assuming it's this, doesn't strike me as relevant. We have seen Lanterns rebuild planets from scratch on more than one occasion. If Krona is either actively pouring energy into blowing that planet up... Then great, he failed to stop an assault from a cosmic being way more powerful than anyone here.

Rookie Hal stopped continents from colliding in JLA year one , with difficulty . Continents are less than 0.1% of the earths mass or volume or something IIRC

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but the continents were being moved by tectonic forces, correct? And from a persisting force? The Earth's plates shifting to accomplish that would be significantly more than just the continents themselves. But at any rate to do that Hal made a construct with greater volume than the planet.

Superman when not possessing those powers also put him in a full nelson which he was unable to get out of despite yelling " I'll kill you ! " to the point where he just gave up trying shortly after in Adventures of Superman 605 just of the top of my head . Aside from the one JLA arc where the Syndicate beat the League there isn't much evidence of them being on quite the same level as the big 7. Especially given that in that arc their GL who was unable to do anything about Kyle's force field in the original story straight up overpowered John Stewart in the fight

Superman and Ultraman were downright tying in that one Superman/Batman annual, to the point where there were literally double punching each other out of the sky with a literal sound effect to match. Also, Power Ring literally changed identities between those story lines, and into a battle hardened soldier. It's entirely likely that Power Ring 2.0 (the black version) was simply more competent.

The planet then exploded along with the star it was orbiting , while facing a yellow weakness and auto shields alone survived that casually ( as well as Jonn in the bubble ) .do you not think this an outlier for John given what he otherwise struggles with and has had his shields broken by ?

Maybe the pure auto shield tanking, but containing J'onn? Eh. We've seen multiple Lanterns across the decades traverse black holes without being harmed if they are experienced and can amp up their shields. I don't see an issue with a class 100 being contained by them.

As for the team fight: given Team Green has (admittedly lower caliber) bricks to run interference, and Wonder Woman is pretty easy pickings via an iron maiden style construct... I am seeing them win here. The rings respond with the speed of though, even with equal speed. And if flight is turned off here, Hal can basically just sweep everyone up in a tornado construct while John snipes them.

The only person who I would give decent odds of reacting and blocking precision strikes is Diana, but with equal speed she can't stop being literally surrounded by blades.

Billy is also worth mentioning because he has exceptionally good durability against stuff like being turned inside out and bombs going off in his head.

If you gave Team Red their energy projection abilities, things might change.