What would've been your pitch to DC for GRAYSON?

[Ghost-Type]

Just make him someone different. But I think 'spy' is a real buzz-kill from a loved vigilante that's rolled with the Batman. I mean... spy. Grayson makes it sound like such a boring word. I'd actually rather him be captured and become a Talon and eventually Bruce's (cliche') most dangerous adversary than a mere spy. Or... it might have even been more appealing if he stopped vigilante-work all-together and became a businessman running a foundation for orphaned youth to be trained and join Hal's circus or something so they've somewhere to go rather than the streets of gotham or Wayne's underfunded projects. Or... him and BlueBird could make a new team-gig with Grayson running base-ops... Not that I think BlueBird and Team go together per se... Meh.

[dropkickjake]

Just make him someone different. But I think 'spy' is a real buzz-kill from a loved vigilante that's rolled with the Batman. I mean... spy. Grayson makes it sound like such a boring word. I'd actually rather him be captured and become a Talon and eventually Bruce's (cliche') most dangerous adversary than a mere spy. Or... it might have even been more appealing if he stopped vigilante-work all-together and became a businessman running a foundation for orphaned youth to be trained and join Hal's circus or something so they've somewhere to go rather than the streets of gotham or Wayne's underfunded projects. Or... him and BlueBird could make a new team-gig with Grayson running base-ops... Not that I think BlueBird and Team go together per se... Meh.

You would rather him be a villain than a James Bond type spy? Gotta throw my emphatic disagreement in here. Also, the phrase "mere spy," is pretty loaded. I mean, before this he was just a mere vigilante in a community of mere superheroes.

[lancerman]

Honesty it's funny because a literally right after he became Nightwing again I really thought they should do a big event where it appears Grayson was one of the major deaths in it, and at the end he's revealed to be secretly working behind the scenes to save the superhero community and has to work in secret to prevent threats that are bigger than the heroes, thus making him kind of like the champion of the DC universe. I also would have shedded the Nightwing persona. I don't know if I would have taken the spy angle, but this was pretty close to what I had in mind.

Frankly I just feel like Nightwing ended up proving itself to be a cool concept but ultimately limiting in actual execution. And after 20 years of reaffirming the ties with Batman and making him basically a grown up Robin (which lets face it, is what Nightwing was, what was different with Nightwing than what Tim was doing as Robin, he had his own solo, but the bigger stories were when he was involved in a Batman arc). He needed to go off and do his own thing far away from everything else.

[Claude]

Oh, they have indicated that they understand the controversy. And Jardin has said something like "the way you would use a gun isn't necessarily the way Dick would use it." As for Seeley and King, they haven't been willing to come down firmly on how this will play out, other than to say it will be an issue, it's use won't be casual, and I believe a statement to the effect that if Dick ever had to use the gun, it would be because he had no choice.

I think it's worth mentioning that, interestingly, King and Seeley are themselves split on the real word use of guns. Seeley has described himself as "anti gun", whereas King is a former Operative who has carried one as part of his job. Myself, I'm anti-gun - but I'm reasurred by the idea that the creative team are planning to explore the issue rather than dogmatically come down on one side or the other right off the Bat.

As D.Grayson says, they're both smart enough to know that eyes will be on them on this!

[JasonTodd428]

You would rather him be a villain than a James Bond type spy? Gotta throw my emphatic disagreement in here.

I'd have to agree with you here. We already have one former Robin that took the villain/anti-hero route (Jason Todd ) so we don't really need a Villainous Robin 2.0 here. That wouldn't do anything to elevate the character into an A-list one and it would definitely destroy everything people love about the character in the process.

[Dzetoun]

Frankly I just feel like Nightwing ended up proving itself to be a cool concept but ultimately limiting in actual execution. And after 20 years of reaffirming the ties with Batman and making him basically a grown up Robin (which lets face it, is what Nightwing was, what was different with Nightwing than what Tim was doing as Robin, he had his own solo, but the bigger stories were when he was involved in a Batman arc). He needed to go off and do his own thing far away from everything else.

Yeah, as you say, a good concept but ultimately limited by being tied too strongly to Batman. In retrospect, it's really a shame that the plan back in the early 1990s for Dick to marry Kori'andr and become a kind of cosmic ranger didn't work out. Now, given that it didn't (for reasons having to do with company turmoil and successive editors leaving), having him return to Gotham was a good move, as it saved the character and put him in a lot better position than most of the old Titans. But it left him kind of stalled for nearly fifteen years, and only the events of Final Crisis really got him moving forward again. It was sort of the comic equivalent of someone moving into their parents' garage apartment after losing a career: it makes practical sense and can lead to some good family bonding, but it risks stagnation if it lasts very long.

I think it's worth mentioning that, interestingly, King and Seeley are themselves split on the real word use of guns. Seeley has described himself as "anti gun", whereas King is a former Operative who has carried one as part of his job. Myself, I'm anti-gun - but I'm reasurred by the idea that the creative team are planning to explore the issue rather than dogmatically come down on one side or the other right off the Bat.

To be accurate, it's true that the writers differ on this, but it isn't fair to portray King as pro-gun. Although he did carry a gun while on assignment for the CIA, he has said that, as a parent of young children, he is actually in favor of strong gun regulation.

[Dzetoun]

I'd have to agree with you here. We already have one former Robin that took the villain/anti-hero route (Jason Todd ) so we don't really need a Villainous Robin 2.0 here. That wouldn't do anything to elevate the character into an A-list one and it would definitely destroy everything people love about the character in the process.

And I would add that the evidence of Jason Todd is that such a move has its severe problems. Granted, that had a lot to do with execution and doesn't necessarily invalidate the basic concept, but still it isn't an encouraging precedent.

[Claude]

To be accurate, it's true that the writers differ on this, but it isn't fair to portray King as pro-gun. Although he did carry a gun while on assignment for the CIA, he has said that, as a parent of young children, he is actually in favor of strong gun regulation.

That's fair to point out, thanks.

I knew he was more in the "it's part of the job" school, but wasn't aware he'd expressed a view on regulation.

[JasonTodd428]

Yeah, as you say, a good concept but ultimately limited by being tied too strongly to Batman. In retrospect, it's really a shame that the plan back in the early 1990s for Dick to marry Kori'andr and become a kind of cosmic ranger didn't work out. Now, given that it didn't (for reasons having to do with company turmoil and successive editors leaving), having him return to Gotham was a good move, as it saved the character and put him in a lot better position than most of the old Titans. But it left him kind of stalled for nearly fifteen years, and only the events of Final Crisis really got him moving forward again. It was sort of the comic equivalent of someone moving into their parents' garage apartment after losing a career: it makes practical sense and can lead to some good family bonding, but it risks stagnation if it lasts very long.

I know the idea of making Dick "Batman" was only ever supposed to be temporary but I still find myself wishing that DC had gone the route of letting Dick remain in that role since it turned out to be so popular among fans. He could have remained as the Batman of Gotham and been a member of the JL while being available for Batman, Inc. missions on the side when necessary while Bruce remained Batman and took an active role in Batman, Inc performing the same duties there as he once did in the JL.

[dick_wingnut]

You can use a gun nonlethally. You can use a razor-sharp boomerang lethally. The only reason Batman uses one and not the other is because of his own personal hangups.

I don't want to see Dick casually killing, but he's Circus Folk. Trick shooting is a bit of a staple.

For Annie Oakley maybe, not acrobats. Wasnt that more a staple of wild west shows?

Sounds painfully silly if he starts shooting guns out of people's hands, but it is better than killing.

[dick_wingnut]

Oh, they have indicated that they understand the controversy. And Jardin has said something like "the way you would use a gun isn't necessarily the way Dick would use it." As for Seeley and King, they haven't been willing to come down firmly on how this will play out, other than to say it will be an issue, it's use won't be casual, and I believe a statement to the effect that if Dick ever had to use the gun, it would be because he had no choice.

Which kind of implies he will use lethal force, probably to save a family, or puppy, or some other forced situation ala Man of Steel.

[gwangung]

Which kind of implies he will use lethal force, probably to save a family, or puppy, or some other forced situation ala Man of Steel.

You mean like how cops operate all the time?

(I think some folks are taking a limited view of all this....)

[Claude]

For Annie Oakley maybe, not acrobats. Wasnt that more a staple of wild west shows?

Sounds painfully silly if he starts shooting guns out of people's hands, but it is better than killing.

How would that be less painfully silly than throwing a bladed weapon to knock guns out of people's hands?

[Dzetoun]

Which kind of implies he will use lethal force, probably to save a family, or puppy, or some other forced situation ala Man of Steel.

Perhaps. But if such a situation were to arise, it would only be ... strained as it is to say in the context of a comic book universe ... realistic. That is why police officers carry firearms, after all. This is one of those situations that makes me very sympathetic to comic book creative teams. They are constantly criticized for lack of realism in their work. Indeed, isn't lack of realism at the heart of so many complaints being lodged against the setup for Grayson: the behavior of the Bat Family isn't realistic, the setup for Dick being dead isn't realistic, the fact that Bruce Wayne isn't immediately known to be Batman isn't realistic, the explanation for Spyral and the secrecy isn't realistic? But often when they did do make a move toward realism, it becomes radioactive within minutes. Of course, casual use of guns isn't realistic either. Anyone who thinks it is should go to a standard textbook in trauma medicine and see what it really means to be shot in the leg or the shoulder (short version, many shoulder wounds depicted in Hollywood as minor would result in death within two minutes, or at least permanent loss of mobility in the joint).

[dropkickjake]

In retrospect, it's really a shame that the plan back in the early 1990s for Dick to marry Kori'andr and become a kind of cosmic ranger didn't work out.

I will always live in curiosity as to how this would have looked and where they would have gone with it. If they hadn't all but severed his ties to Kori, this would have been a supremely logical direction to take post-FE.