Dogfight in the air

[Captain Smith]

Each side gets 100 planes and fights it over Arena airspace of 500 miles. The forces start 100 miles apart. Each plane type faces another plane type. After a match, the number down is replaced. The winner is the force that takes the least losses.

You cannot FTL (if capable) out of the game and come back - it's a dog fight.

The planes are:

The best VF fighters from Macross

Imperial or Rebel Fighters from Star Wars

BSG fighters

ID4 alien

Quin Jets

Want to throw in any others? Must be a reasonable fighter type plane.

[Totoro Man]

welll. this one's kinda tough. a bit too open ended. but I guess I'll throw my hat in and try out a scenario that I'm sure will get a response. mind you, I enjoy Star Wars but I'm not a hardcore fan. my opinions will be tempered more by my love of history and flight sims combined with the live-action films. I'm not familiar with the EU, technical minutiae, and all that. it will be partially informed by thousands of hours combat flight sims against AI and real people, as well as having read thousands of pages on WW1 and WW2 aerial combat... which is obviously what the Star Wars dogfights are based on.

Standard Tie Fighter vs X-Wing


TIE FIGHTER:
Cons:
only two guns vs X-Wing's four
doesn't take as much damage
bad visibility from the cockpit

Pros:
guns are closely spaced along the line of flight, easier to aim in nose-to-nose engagements
more concentrated fire ensures that when hits are scored they're more likely to be lethal
more agile. once they've flown past their adversary they're more likely to get into a kill position
better flight formations (pairs, and 4 line-abreast, is superior to the Wedge that the Rebels seem to use)

X-WING
cons:
guns are set very far apart, and has low concentration of fire
this mean's it's more likely to score a hit at long range against a moving target, but it's also less likely to kill it
at very close ranges it's weapons should actually have a VERY hard time scoring a hit against a Tie-Fighter
not as agile,
Rebel formations appear to be less flexible than Imperial formations. densely packed wedge formations or flat-out mobs of fighters will have a tough time of it against the Empire's more practical line-abreast, 3-plane V's, and fighting pair.

at long ranges I think the X-Wing's are superior. but since the emphasis here is on the classic "FURBALL!" I believe that Tie Fighters will take the win. all things being equal, I think the higher concentration of fire, more flexible tactical formations, and agility will help them take the win. again, the Empire seems to use the pair and quartet in line-abreast formation. while there are weaknesses in that formation-- it's infinitely preferable to the Wedge. with the Rebel formations I've seen the guys up front can make a meaningful contribution to the fight while the guys in the back are stuck. they can't really shoot through their comrades and they can't evade without having a collision with friendlies. additionally, if somebody in the front of the Wedge gets taken out the people behind them will get damaged by flying through them. I realize that the Rebels use the fighting pair, and 3-plane Vs. it's just that they demonstrated some pretty bad tactical formation flying in every film. the Empire, while not spectacular, seemed to demonstrate at LEAST basic competence in this area. once the character shields are taken out of the picture I think the Empire Tie Fighters would win the vast majority of scenarios in a massive dogfight.

I'm sure that there are more knowledgeable people out there on both fighter combat and Star Wars... but I figure this could at least get the ball rolling.

[T51R]

MIG-31 "Firefox."

Just one of them.

Because Clint Eastwood opens the cockpit mid-dogfight, and shoots everyone else with a .357, after broadcasing on all frequencies "do you feel lucky, punks?"

[Sharpandpointies]

...he used a .44.

[T51R]

...he used a .44.

I stand corrected.

But.

That's even MORE BADASS.

[Captain Smith]

To add some comments. The ID4 aliens had very tough shields. Don't know if they were proof against really heavy stuff but F-18 guns and missiles didn't faze them until the shields were down. However, crashing into a stone wall did them in.

The Macross fights had significant guided missile capacities that could home in on the others. The others I mentioned seem to have no modern style missiles. The VF types seem much more maneuverable due to their transforms.

[StupidMoniker]

To add some comments. The ID4 aliens had very tough shields. Don't know if they were proof against really heavy stuff but F-18 guns and missiles didn't faze them until the shields were down. However, crashing into a stone wall did them in.

The ID4 aliens shields were only seen when there was a mothership present. The only thing we know about the fighter sans mothership was that it sat dormant at Area 51 for decades and was able to power back on immediately when a mothership returned. I don't know how much you want to handwave the shields being intrinsic to the fighter because of that. Also, they seem exceptionally susceptible to electronic warfare, so Cylon raiders especially are going to do a number on them.

[Captain Smith]

That's a good point. The BSG Cyclon fighters might have significant EW capacities. I kept the shield for ID4 as intrinsic just because.

[Melchior]

Well, if I wanted to really throw everything off, I would see about fielding 100 Shadow Alpha fighters from Robotech, rather than grabbing Macross Valkyries.

Shadow fighters have an ability that makes them trackable by the Mk1 Eyeball (or other visual light methods), and probably sonar. Radar, lidar, other exotic scanners? Do not work. They might even have perfect stealth against the Cylon Raiders because of that. Then you add on 60 missiles each without hard points, and....

Itano circus!

If I went straight Macross, I would probably pull the VF-25s or VF-27s from Macross Frontier. Valkyries are known for wildly changing movement profiles due to changing forms, with the 25 and 27 series pulling the switch in less than a second. They can hit mach 5 in atmosphere without issues and can reach low satellite orbit if required, so I do not see any of the other fighters being significantly faster. An inertial canceller of up to 27.5 Gs for 120 seconds is standard (no word on how long it takes to cycle that) means that the pilots can briefly pull maneuvers that are physically impossible for a human to perform without pulping themselves. The Super models feature a bunch (42) of missiles on top of the six hard points, and those hardpoints can seat up to nuclear missiles. A small pinpoint barrier system is also standard, so they have a small energy shield. And if the Valkyries cannot get past the shields normally, well, to quote a fanfic: "Fact: No fighter has ever beaten a Valkyrie in a wrestling contest." And scaled-up k-bars are standard.

The VF-27 is probably a superior craft, but the details on it are sketchier, though its big gun is pretty nasty. And I am assuming that the MDE devices are not included at any point (think not quite little doctor).

If I wanted to slant things more in the Macross favor, I would probably specify 100 Super VF-25Gs, with Luka's hack and fully kitted out. Which means you get 100 fully loaded Valkyries.... and 3-6 "unshackled" Ghost fighter drones per Valkyrie.