Superman II: Death of the Phantom Zone Criminals or Capture?

[CaptainLiberty76]

Since this has gotten some fairly interesting discussion on the MoS Appreciation Thread I thought I'd start a new thread and give my own humble insight and opinion. Some have said that Zod and company were killed in Superman II after the loss of their powers. I never got that; not back in the day when I saw it in the theater or repeated viewings through the years.

Yes, Superman crushes Zod's hand and yes, Ursa is smacked in the face by Lois and Non just falls; but what I thought happened was that they were returned to the Phantom Zone. Kal had rigged the Fortress to take away their powers (stated as such in the film, he had reversed the chamber to protect him while affecting Zod and company in the Fortress) and he had set up a means that they were returned to the Zone when they fell into the crevasse (inference from how events presented themselves). That was what I believed until I saw the Donner cut and it showed the three being loaded into a transport vehicle (How did it get there to the North Pole, and did everyone now know the location of the Fortress of Solitude?)

I NEVER got the 'Superman killed Zod, Ursa and Non vibe' from any of the actions of the films (whether the Lester version or the Donner version). Discussion is now open...have fun...

[Lexrules]

In the original script that was filmed by Donner they were taken into custody and not killed. When Lester took over he simply thought people would not care and just assume Superman had just defeated them and that the scene with them being taken into custody was not needed and was overkill.

I could be wrong but I think Lester also intended it that he did not kill them but that they simply were either taken back to the Phantom Zone or were arrested by Superman and brought to Justice. I'm not sure if anyone asked Lester that question or not.

[exile001]

I am only talking about the Lester version here, as this was the one theatrically released and the version everyone knows. Also, I prefer this version and am more familiar with it. Plus, if there is a scene in the Donner cut where the PZCs are hauled away then that is irrelevant to the conversation as they clearly lived in that cut.

My issue is that there is no evidence for the arguement that they were trapped, or returned to the Phantom Zone (how would this even happen?).

We see them de-powered then tossed into pits (Zod gives a looong scream IIRC). They are never mentioned again and the world moves on.

Within the narrative of the film, that which is seen to the viewer, there is no reason to believe that they weren't killed.

Is this perfect? No. Does it detract from the movie? Not really. I have seen this film countless times since I was a little kid, so this I know how it ends and it doesn't stop me loving it.

[CaptainLiberty76]

I am only talking about the Lester version here, as this was the one theatrically released and the version everyone knows. Also, I prefer this version and am more familiar with it. Plus, if there is a scene in the Donner cut where the PZCs are hauled away then that is irrelevant to the conversation as they clearly lived in that cut.

My issue is that there is no evidence for the arguement that they were trapped, or returned to the Phantom Zone (how would this even happen?).

We see them de-powered then tossed into pits (Zod gives a looong scream IIRC). They are never mentioned again and the world moves on.

Within the narrative of the film, that which is seen to the viewer, there is no reason to believe that they weren't killed.

Is this perfect? No. Does it detract from the movie? Not really. I have seen this film countless times since I was a little kid, so this I know how it ends and it doesn't stop me loving it.

As to the bolded part--There is no reason in the context of the Lester film to believe that they WERE killed. After all, if they were killed would Supes be so casual about it? Not even in those more 'innocent' times of the Reeves movies would Supes had acted so cavalier about the PZC's 'deaths.'

I mean, think about it, Supes looks over into the crevasse as Ursa falls in with something of a whimsical look on his face in reaction to Lois punching Ursa. He would simply have not done that if she had just been punched into a fall to her death. As to how could it even had been done; comic book resources (tongue in cheek pun)...I mean how did he set the chamber in reverse ("silly me, I had the thing stuck in reverse"); in the same way as he set the chamber to take away their powers, he prepared a dimensional portal to convey the criminals back into the Zone. That explanation, after all, makes more sense than a 'memory-stealing' kiss.

I contend that the PZC's were never killed in Superman II, nor is it honestly inferred in any way that they were; they were obviously (in the context of the original film) depowered and returned to the Zone--all done utilizing the last of his Fortress defenses. It isn't only Bats who gets the upper hand given sufficient prep time; with enough prep-time Supes can make S-shield plastic nets (?) {really, what was that?}; he can put the chamber in reverse, and he could prepare a PZ dimensional portal. After all, he is Superman.

[Sacred Knight]

I always assumed they died. People falling into a chasm in which the bottom cannot be seen suggests a long, deadly fall to me. I do think they were meant to just be trapped, but the execution of the scene fails to suggest it at all, thus I chalk it up to another one of Lester's myriad of mistakes.

[Joe Acro]

I always assumed they died. People falling into a chasm in which the bottom cannot be seen suggests a long, deadly fall to me. I do think they were meant to just be trapped, but the execution of the scene fails to suggest it at all, thus I chalk it up to another one of Lester's myriad of mistakes.

I've assumed, given the location of the Fortress, that the crevices led to freezing water, no matter deep the crevice itself was.

That makes it seem less likely to me that they were killed. I don't know what happens to them--the film doesn't say--but circumstances don't seem to dictate that they were absolutely killed.

[The Beast]

As to the bolded part--There is no reason in the context of the Lester film to believe that they WERE killed. After all, if they were killed would Supes be so casual about it? Not even in those more 'innocent' times of the Reeves movies would Supes had acted so cavalier about the PZC's 'deaths.'

I mean, think about it, Supes looks over into the crevasse as Ursa falls in with something of a whimsical look on his face in reaction to Lois punching Ursa. He would simply have not done that if she had just been punched into a fall to her death. As to how could it even had been done; comic book resources (tongue in cheek pun)...I mean how did he set the chamber in reverse ("silly me, I had the thing stuck in reverse"); in the same way as he set the chamber to take away their powers, he prepared a dimensional portal to convey the criminals back into the Zone. That explanation, after all, makes more sense than a 'memory-stealing' kiss.

I contend that the PZC's were never killed in Superman II, nor is it honestly inferred in any way that they were; they were obviously (in the context of the original film) depowered and returned to the Zone--all done utilizing the last of his Fortress defenses. It isn't only Bats who gets the upper hand given sufficient prep time; with enough prep-time Supes can make S-shield plastic nets (?) {really, what was that?}; he can put the chamber in reverse, and he could prepare a PZ dimensional portal. After all, he is Superman.

Bear in mind this is the same Superman who gave up his powers and responsibilities to bed Lois, then when that didn't work out so great he super rufied her and then went back to the diner to assault and humiliate the bully out of petty revenge. He's already compromising his values for movie audiences.

Now did the villains die at the end? In both the Lester version and the Donner version based on the narrative provided we see Superman kneel before Zod then he crushes every bone in his hand before throwing him across the room. Zod then falls into the foggy abyss, as does Non when he tries to fly. Lois gets payback by punching out Ursa who also falls, her voice trailing off in the distance without ever hitting the bottom. I just showed this sequence to my 6 year old son and I asked him what happened. He told me they fell in a deep hole and when I asked him what he thought happened to them at the bottom, he closed his eyes, stuck his tongue out the side of his mouth and said "uuuggghhh." Just to be sure I asked him to verbalize his opinion and he thinks they died.

In both versions, there are no UN police there to escort the prisoners off to jail, that only occurred in a deleted scene. Donner and Lester both intended for the villains to die for their crimes against humanity because movie audiences demand those consequences against enemy combatants who invade, decimate and conquer the United States of America. Donner is only slightly more "authentic" in his portrayal of Superman by having him spin around the earth to turn back time which 'un-kills' the villains and restores them to the phantom zone.

So Lester had Superman kill and Donner had Superman un-kill after the fact but killing was done in both cases. Some fans experienced cognitive dissonance over this act and so they project alternative scenarios onto the narrative to resolve the contradiction in their minds but that doesn't alter the past events as depicted by either filmmaker.

After all, it is forbidden to interfere with human history, or to embrace deleted scenes as canon.

[Lexrules]

Bear in mind this is the same Superman who gave up his powers and responsibilities to bed Lois, then when that didn't work out so great he super rufied her and then went back to the diner to assault and humiliate the bully out of petty revenge. He's already compromising his values for movie audiences.

Now did the villains die at the end? In both the Lester version and the Donner version based on the narrative provided we see Superman kneel before Zod then he crushes every bone in his hand before throwing him across the room. Zod then falls into the foggy abyss, as does Non when he tries to fly. Lois gets payback by punching out Ursa who also falls, her voice trailing off in the distance without ever hitting the bottom. I just showed this sequence to my 6 year old son and I asked him what happened. He told me they fell in a deep hole and when I asked him what he thought happened to them at the bottom, he closed his eyes, stuck his tongue out the side of his mouth and said "uuuggghhh." Just to be sure I asked him to verbalize his opinion and he thinks they died.

In both versions, there are no UN police there to escort the prisoners off to jail, that only occurred in a deleted scene. Donner and Lester both intended for the villains to die for their crimes against humanity because movie audiences demand those consequences against enemy combatants who invade, decimate and conquer the United States of America. Donner is only slightly more "authentic" in his portrayal of Superman by having him spin around the earth to turn back time which 'un-kills' the villains and restores them to the phantom zone.

So Lester had Superman kill and Donner had Superman un-kill after the fact but killing was done in both cases. Some fans experienced cognitive dissonance over this act and so they project alternative scenarios onto the narrative to resolve the contradiction in their minds but that doesn't alter the past events as depicted by either filmmaker.

After all, it is forbidden to interfere with human history, or to embrace deleted scenes as canon.

Where did you here Donner intended for the villains to die. In the original script that Donner used they were taken into custody.

You're over extending a bit on this I think even when it come to Lester as I'm not sure we have ever heard a interview with him concerning the matter. He could very well have intended it for Superman to kill Zod but then again he may not have and just thought it was to be left in the viewers mind what happened.

Either way we most likely will always have this did he or didn't he. Best to just leave it in ones interpretation.

[exile001]

When Lester took over he simply thought people would not care

I think this is the main problem. Lester didn't care enough and left it ambiguous at best.

[ABH]

I just thought they were stuck down there, and that Superman would deal with them (either keep them locked up there, or take them to prison) later.

I never thought that they fell to their deaths, especially since Lois would have been responsible for Ursa's death, if that were the case.

[Mbast1]

I NEVER got the 'Superman killed Zod, Ursa and Non vibe' from any of the actions of the films (whether the Lester version or the Donner version). Discussion is now open...have fun...

Neither did I. This came up in a discussion of MoS, wherein I said I don't care for a Superman who kills, and my LCS owner said that Superman DID kill in S2. I simply never thought so, even without the deleted scene. Didn't fit his character. I think this is one of those "Hey, I've got the best counter-argument" lines that just doesn't work.

[Clark_Kent]

Scripts and deleted scenes do not matter. No matter how much you wish they might, they just don't. The only thing that matters is what is on screen in the THEATRICAL cut of the film. The cut that gets decided upon, and the studio signs off on, and that people pay money to see. And the facts are thus:

• Superman tricks them and removes their powers.
• Superman tosses Zod into a 'pit'; Lois punches Ursa into a pit; Non falls into a pit attempting to fly.

AND WE NEVER SEE OR HEAR OF THEM AGAIN. The last thing we see or hear is the fall, and Zod's voice trailing off (indicating quite a fall). They were not arrested by "arctic police" (this idea is so stupid), and not sent back to the zone.

Then we have to take into account the time period in which this film was made and the many people involved in writing it. When SII came out, there wasn't really a "geek culture" like there is today. People didn't cry for fair trials back then, they just went to the movies to see the hero win. And Superman did, because he's Superman & he always does. And people loved it. The hero won, the villians were vanquished, a sequel announced. I do believe it was "intended" that they died, although it wasn't shown (this was a family film after all). But you have to take into account how often the trope of "villian falls to his/her death at the end" was used back then. Especially in family fridndly films, where the bad guy got their cumoppence (sp) without being graphic.

[The Beast]

Scripts and deleted scenes do not matter. No matter how much you wish they might, they just don't. The only thing that matters is what is on screen in the THEATRICAL cut of the film. The cut that gets decided upon, and the studio signs off on, and that people pay money to see. And the facts are thus:

• Superman tricks them and removes their powers.
• Superman tosses Zod into a 'pit'; Lois punches Ursa into a pit; Non falls into a pit attempting to fly.

AND WE NEVER SEE OR HEAR OF THEM AGAIN. The last thing we see or hear is the fall, and Zod's voice trailing off (indicating quite a fall). They were not arrested by "arctic police" (this idea is so stupid), and not sent back to the zone.

Then we have to take into account the time period in which this film was made and the many people involved in writing it. When SII came out, there wasn't really a "geek culture" like there is today. People didn't cry for fair trials back then, they just went to the movies to see the hero win. And Superman did, because he's Superman & he always does. And people loved it. The hero won, the villians were vanquished, a sequel announced. I do believe it was "intended" that they died, although it wasn't shown (this was a family film after all). But you have to take into account how often the trope of "villian falls to his/her death at the end" was used back then. Especially in family fridndly films, where the bad guy got their cumoppence (sp) without being graphic.

Well said, sir!

I was going to bother responding to some of these posts but now I can save myself the time and energy and simply quote you for truth.

[Mbast1]

Scripts and deleted scenes do not matter. No matter how much you wish they might, they just don't. The only thing that matters is what is on screen in the THEATRICAL cut of the film.

Says who, exactly? This really isn't an issue in which there is an authority handing out rules.

• Superman tosses Zod into a 'pit'; Lois punches Ursa into a pit; Non falls into a pit attempting to fly.

AND WE NEVER SEE OR HEAR OF THEM AGAIN.

The point I don't see addressed is that this is a superhero movie, from the early 80s. It's not going to have the hero casually kill the villains. I really had never met a single person who thought they'd died until MoS, and now they seem to be out everywhere. Not saying they didn't exist, but it seems odd that this issue only started being a problem when people wanted to say that Superman had already killed. But, that just doesn't fit with the times.
Of course we never see or hear of them again, there were only two more movies, with their OWN plots. I have seen a LOT of Bond movies, and rarely does he bring up past villains. Movies usually focus on the stories they're telling at the time.

hey just went to the movies to see the hero win. And Superman did, because he's Superman & he always does. And people loved it. The hero won, the villians were vanquished, a sequel announced.

I've seen tons of movies from that time and earlier where the heroes won, but didn't kill the villains.

I do believe it was "intended" that they died, although it wasn't shown

So intention matters when you think it's on your side, otherwise it doesn't?

Especially in family fridndly films, where the bad guy got their cumoppence (sp) without being graphic.

Or didn't die at all. If, as you say, it WAS a family film, I say it's MORE likely they weren't intended to die.

[The Beast]

Says who, exactly? This really isn't an issue in which there is an authority handing out rules.

It's because the final cut of the theatrical release is the only version that the vast majority of the general audience is going to see, especially in 1980.

The point I don't see addressed is that this is a superhero movie, from the early 80s. It's not going to have the hero casually kill the villains.

It was the second superhero movie ever made, there were no standards yet. Even then, he'd kill Nuclear Man in '87 and Batman would kill Joker and others in '89 because movie audiences expect bad guys to die.

I really had never met a single person who thought they'd died until MoS, and now they seem to be out everywhere. Not saying they didn't exist, but it seems odd that this issue only started being a problem when people wanted to say that Superman had already killed. But, that just doesn't fit with the times.

I had the exact same experience but completely opposite. I never met anyone who thought they hadn't died before MoS. I find it odd that people deny the use of lethal force exactly the same time that supporters of MoS cite Superman II as an example of precedent.

I'm just curious, how old were you in 1980?