Superman II: Death of the Phantom Zone Criminals or Capture?

[Auguste Dupin]

I think leaving unnecessary information out doesn't change the story. It's just editing what doesn't further the story. Plus it ignores the tone of the scene.

So, showing that throwing the bad guys in a bottomless pit didn't kill them doesn't further the story? Wouldn't that means that wether or not the bad guys survived isn't important to the story?
Let's put it this way: if you go with the idea that they survived, it means that, in the finished picture, what happens to the main antagonists of the film is considered completely irrelevant to the story. That's insane. If they've survived, then this movie has some huge editing problems.
Also, the tone: what about it? May I remind you that, in Raiders of the Lost Ark, Indy shoots a guy in cold blood and it's played out as a hilarious scene? Death has been light hearted in movies before, especially when bad guys are the ones dying.

In the Donner Cut, the criminals return to the Zone, in the Lester script, they end up arrested. The performance and storytelling indicate Superman doesn't kil

They don't "return to the Zone", they never left it in the first place because Superman went back in time to fix everything. This has nothing to do with their hypothetic survival from the fall.
In a similar fashion,they may have been arrested in the script, but that's completely irrelevant. Nobody's supposed to even read the script, appart from the crew. The script is a tool, and is almost always different from the result on screen. Again, Burton's Batman. In the script, Alfred doesn't let Vicky Vale into the Batcave and Jack Nappier never shot Bruce Wayne's parents.
And neither the performance nor the storytelling indicates a thing. If anything, my years of watching Disney cartoons taught me that "bad guys falling into bottomless pits= death".

[Johnny Thunders!]

In the Lester film, Sumerman doesn't kill the French terrorists trying to destroy Paris. Luthor, his only power is his mind, he gets to live after detonating an atom bomb in the US, and he keeps the weapon of his mind. It's out of character for the Superman in those films to kill. Luthor is arguably the deadliest person in the room and he lives. Plus Superman kills none of the criminals in those movies beforehand. Why start now? There is no indication that the pits are bottomless. Jor El devised the Phantom Zone to imprison without killing, why would Kal go against that philosophy?

I was thinking about Man of Steel, the whole point is to show a new aspect of Superman. That's why Zod dying is such a shock. It really undercuts Man of Steel if all its doing is referencing Superman 2..

[Auguste Dupin]

In the Lester film, Sumerman doesn't kill the French terrorists trying to destroy Paris. Luthor, his only power is his mind, he gets to live after detonating an atom bomb in the US, and he keeps the weapon of his mind. It's out of character for the Superman in those films to kill. Luthor is arguably the deadliest person in the room and he lives. Plus Superman kills none of the criminals in those movies beforehand. Why start now? There is no indication that the pits are bottomless.
Jor El devised the Phantom Zone to imprison without killing, why would Kal go against that philosophy?

There's some levels of nuance between "never kill ever" and "murder every bad guy I come accross", you know. Zod and his crew are much more dangerous than the French terrorists, or even Luthor (the deadliest person in the room? Are you kidding? That version of Luthor is a joke. If anything, his complete submission towards the Kryptonians proved that he wasn't even close to being as dangerous). Let's put it this way...if they're supposed to be arrested by the police, why push them into the pit at all? Why not pushing Luthor (who is presumably going back to jail) into the pit with them? That makes no sense.
As for the bottomless pits...You've seen the bottom? Because I haven't. What I've seen is that it was way too high for anyone without powers to survive falling in.

[Johnny Thunders!]

Luthor detonates 2 nuclear missiles and nearly sinks California. No I didn't see the bottom but I have seen the script, heard the commentary, and watched the deleted scene that indicates the criminals lived. Haven't seen one corpse or heard a reason why Lois gets to kill too.

[The Darknight Detective]

As for the bottomless pits...You've seen the bottom? Because I haven't. What I've seen is that it was way too high for anyone without powers to survive falling in.

Even it wasn't bottomless, they''re not coming out of it walking to the paddy wagon. Unless some here want to play the Wile E. Coyote card , the Kryptonians are not going to dust themselves off as if nothing happened.

[Johnny Thunders!]

Technically you survive a bottomless pit. The bottom is what kills you.

[Auguste Dupin]

Luthor detonates 2 nuclear missiles and nearly sinks California. No I didn't see the bottom but I have seen the script, heard the commentary, and watched the deleted scene that indicates the criminals lived. Haven't seen one corpse or heard a reason why Lois gets to kill too.

Too bad none of these are receivable as evidence (scripts aren't supposed to be read by the public and are changed mid-filmin or even during editing all the time-that's why Directors' cuts are a thing-, deleted scenes are deleted and therefore not a part of the film, and the commentary is nothing more than a bunch of people talking about the movie after the movie is made). If you're going this route, Zod wasn't supposed to die in the original script for MOS either.
As for Luthor....Yeah, and the Kryptonians took over the world in a big afternoon. Not only that, but Luthor completely sucks up to them, clearly proving which one is the alpha dog of supervillains in the room.

[Johnny Thunders!]

Luthor comes out standing in the end, and I can't say the same for Zod. Also the script matters because it gives a direction for characterIzation and story. Editing gets rid of what's redundant. it's redundant to emphasize he wouldn't kill because they establish that beforehand and repeatedly.

[Auguste Dupin]

Luthor comes out standing in the end, and I can't say the same for Zod. Also the script matters because it gives a direction for characterIzation and story. Editing gets rid of what's redundant. it's redundant to emphasize he wouldn't kill because they establish that beforehand and repeatedly.

In order:
-On Luthor: you can't be serious. Luthor is only standing because he wasn't worth being thrown into a pit, not because of anything he did. Hell, he had the perfect opportunity to team up with Superman to show them who's boss, but he called out his new masters in the hopes they won't kill him because he's an opportunistic coward.
- On the script: the script is the starting material used to make the movie. They are, however, almost never followed to the letter. Changes are made on the set at the last second, lines are improvised by the actors, technical issues prevent certain things from happening, the producer just had what he thought was a better idea and forced it on the director.... Some of them are meaningless, others change the entire story. Ultimately, people see the movie, not the script. Therefore, using the script doesn't prove anything. It's in the movie or it's not. A scene being in the script only proved that this direction was considered, not chosen.
-So, what you're saying is that establishing the fate of the main antagonists of the movie is "redundant". Sounds like a proof of incompetence to me. Because that's a pretty important thing to establish if you ask me.
Also, established repeatedly....when?

[Johnny Thunders!]

No one dies by Supermans hands in the first movie or the second, despite almost setting off three nuclear weapons. Superman is still merciful.

Think of the Zod capture scenes as "extended" scenes. It's what happens off camera. Not necessary but part of an extended whole.

Lex walks away from two encounters with Superman with all his tools still at his command. The zone criminals were robbed of their only weapons.

[The Darknight Detective]

Think of the Zod capture scenes as "extended" scenes.

I think of it the way it was intended for TV: so impressionable children won't think Superman kills or at least maims baddies.

[Johnny Thunders!]

I think of it the way it was intended for TV: so impressionable children won't think Superman kills or at least maims baddies.

I bet it had more to do with filling a time slot. Kids went to the theaters to see Superman.

[Auguste Dupin]

No one dies by Supermans hands in the first movie or the second, despite almost setting off three nuclear weapons. Superman is still merciful.

Think of the Zod capture scenes as "extended" scenes. It's what happens off camera. Not necessary but part of an extended whole.

Lex walks away from two encounters with Superman with all his tools still at his command. The zone criminals were robbed of their only weapons.

-That's not a proof that he has a no kill rule, just that he's merciful. To use an example from another series, Goku is merciful all the time, that doesn't mean he never kills. Superman never faced anyone like Zod and his crew before. It could also simply be a misundertanding of the character, something I wouldn't put past Lester.

- You still have to explain how showing the fate of the main antagonists of the movie is somehow "unecessary". As someone who studied movie making and the rules of narration, that sounds completely insane to me. That's, like, narration 1.0.1. You will note that I find Superman 2 in general to be a very bad movie, but still. If they are supposed to be alive, these scenes were, in fact, necessary.

- What tools? His ego? His two clumsy henchmen? Seriously, Luthor's role in Superman 2 is to submit to the Kryptonians, give them information in exchange of Australia, being about to be killed once he stopped to be useful to them until he manage to find another way to be useful, only to be promised to be given Australia again, without ever realising they're not going to give him Australia and will, in fact, murder him in the end. Seriously, it happens, like, 3 times, and he never figures out he can't trust them. He's comic relief in this film,and nothing more.

[The Darknight Detective]

I bet it had more to do with filling a time slot. Kids went to the theaters to see Superman.

Well, since the scene in question is extremely short, there's absolutely no reason why it shouldn't have been in the theatrical version other than that wasn't the intent at the time of the film's release.

[Johnny Thunders!]

Luthor got closer to killing Superman than Zod did. I don't need to see the Phantom Zone criminals arrests because in the 4 hours of movie before that final scene, all of Supermans foes survive, and it's played for comedy.