Superman II: Death of the Phantom Zone Criminals or Capture?

[lancerman]

I mean in most films when a villain with no superpowers falls down a bottomless pit it's assumed they died. As a kid I thought they died, everyone I've ever watched the film with thought they died. I didn't even question it until I was much older and I heard of the Donner version. They never appear again in the series, and you never see any reason to think Superman was imprisoning them or that he had the means to place them back in the Phantom Zone.

The most logical thing to assume is that he killed them.

[Mbast1]

the slightest bit uncharacteristic for the selfish, emotionally needy, irresponsible bullying murderer that was the Donner/Singer Superman, described well by David Uzumeri of Comics Alliance as "a creepy dude with serious self-esteem issues and a need to control people".

Wow, did WE watch two different movies.

[Mbast1]

The most logical thing to assume is that he killed them.

ONLY if you assume it's logical to assume that this Superman killed. Which I don't. We see a handful of things and simply don't know anything more. Claiming we do is reading what isn't there into the scene. We don't know what happened to them.

[lancerman]

ONLY if you assume it's logical to assume that this Superman killed. Which I don't. We see a handful of things and simply don't know anything more. Claiming we do is reading what isn't there into the scene. We don't know what happened to them.

In any film if someone gets thrown down a bottomless pit and doesn't turn up alive later on it's assumed they died. In any film. Why is it different here?

[Dispenser Of Truth]

Wow, did WE watch two different movies.

He surrenders his powers the first chance in his life that he gets and leaves the world in incalculable peril to get laid, murders a couple powerless beaten dudes, hangs around just long enough to super-roofie Lois and shove a dude's head into a pinball machine for bullying him before in front of his girlfriend, then f**ks off into space for 5 years to find his people he already knows are dead because it's SOOOOO LOOONELLLY being the most powerful and universally beloved being on Earth, returns when that doesn't work out to learn he left his girlfriend knocked up, who without her memory of the incident must have thought either she had some sort of demon seed growing in her or that Kryptonians can impregnate human women via hand-holding, and he then stalks said engaged girlfriend until she implicitly agrees to go back to him away from her far more courageous and not super-creepy new boyfriend (who they don't seem to discuss revealing to the actual paternal status of the child he loves that he believes to be his son).

[Sacred Knight]

I mean in most films when a villain with no superpowers falls down a bottomless pit it's assumed they died. As a kid I thought they died, everyone I've ever watched the film with thought they died. I didn't even question it until I was much older and I heard of the Donner version. They never appear again in the series, and you never see any reason to think Superman was imprisoning them or that he had the means to place them back in the Phantom Zone.

The most logical thing to assume is that he killed them.

Pretty much this, yep. The only reason I know now they were originally meant to live was because of research, leaked footage, original screenplays and whatnot. With what was actually produced as the final cut of the film though, there is just nothing to convey that these three lived, outside of the blasé, lighthearted nature of the aftermath. But the entire film was so high on camp the reactions never gave me pause.

[lancerman]

He surrenders his powers the first chance in his life that he gets and leaves the world in incalculable peril to get laid, murders a couple powerless beaten dudes, hangs around just long enough to super-roofie Lois and shove a dude's head into a pinball machine for bullying him before in front of his girlfriend, then f**ks off into space for 5 years to find his people he already knows are dead because it's SOOOOO LOOONELLLY being the most powerful and universally beloved being on Earth, returns when that doesn't work out to learn he left his girlfriend knocked up, who without her memory of the incident must have thought either she had some sort of demon seed growing in her or that Kryptonians can impregnate human women via hand-holding, and he then stalks said engaged girlfriend until she implicitly agrees to go back to him away from her far more courageous and not super-creepy new boyfriend (who they don't seem to discuss revealing to the actual paternal status of the child he loves that he believes to be his son).

I choose to believe that the he has heat vision, and Cyclops goes "no that's my boy".

[13th Superman]

I mean in most films when a villain with no superpowers falls down a bottomless pit it's assumed they died. As a kid I thought they died, everyone I've ever watched the film with thought they died. I didn't even question it until I was much older and I heard of the Donner version. They never appear again in the series, and you never see any reason to think Superman was imprisoning them or that he had the means to place them back in the Phantom Zone.

The most logical thing to assume is that he killed them.

This. I always assumed he killed them and I didn't have a problem with it. Tim Burton's Batman killed Joker and a few others in the second movie and it never bothered me at all.

[Lexrules]

This. I always assumed he killed them and I didn't have a problem with it. Tim Burton's Batman killed Joker and a few others in the second movie and it never bothered me at all.

Well that was Tim Burton who never read a Batman comic book in his life.

[Lexrules]

In any film if someone gets thrown down a bottomless pit and doesn't turn up alive later on it's assumed they died. In any film. Why is it different here?

Simply because it was Superman and at the time he had a strict no kill policy. You need to remember the time this movie was set in, Christopher Reeve for all intensive purposes was a mixer of the Silver and Bronze age Superman and did not kill. Richard Donner was a Superman fan growing up and understood the character at that time in history.

[Kurosawa]

I don't see how anyone can watch that scene and think that Superman and Lois Lane (!) could kill two people, and Superman stand there and let the other person fall to his death, and just laugh about it. Anyone with any concept of storytelling, of film, of anything really, knows that scene was not written, shot and acted with that outcome in mind. And right in front of Lex Luthor? Riiiiiggghhhht.

Christopher Reeve himself said that no one died in any of his movies past the original. As he was the star of those movies, I'll take his word for it.

Now if you do see it that way, then Christopher Reeves' Superman and Margot Kidder's Lois are about as evil and insane as Joker and Harley.

[exile001]

I don't see how anyone can watch that scene and think that Superman and Lois Lane (!) could kill two people, and Superman stand there and let the other person fall to his death, and just laugh about it. Anyone with any concept of storytelling, of film, of anything really, knows that scene was not written, shot and acted with that outcome in mind.

I have a concept of all these things, and that's exactly what I think. Sorry, but the scene, as it is presented, gives me no reason to believe they survived.

[dancj]

Christopher Reeve himself said that no one died in any of his movies past the original. As he was the star of those movies, I'll take his word for it.

No-one at all? Well there's no doubt that Ursa killed an astronaut.

As Zod and co, there are cuts where it's ambiguous and there's at least one cut - the cut that was actually shown on tell in Britain at least - where it's explicitly shown that they survived.

[manduck37]

I always thought that Superman killed all three of them at the end of the film. There was no indication in the film that Superman was setting any kind of trap beyond taking away their powers. So what we see is Superman luring them to the fortress, using the device we saw earlier in the film that took his powers away, then tossing the three criminals into a pit so deep their screams fade away. It's established with the hand crushing that Zod's powers are gone. There was no indication anywhere in the film that Superman had access to the Phantom Zone. He tossed the three kryptonian criminals off an icy cliff into oblivion. Seriously, their screams faded out. That's not a soft landing or sliding into a prison cell. That's falling so far that you can't hear them anymore. Hitting anything at that great a fall is a death sentence. People break their necks falling 10 feet off a ladder. Being tossed off a cliff would kill any normal person, which Zod and crew became. Then, they are never seen again. Sounds pretty final to me.

I had no idea that there was an additional scene with them being arrested or that Donner's intent was to have them captured. Not until fairly recently, at least. Nothing in the original film indicates any of that. Everyone I knew thought Superman killed them at the end of the film. That's what movie heroes do, take out the bad guy. So I think that's what is expected. I like the idea that Superman captured the criminals and turned them over much better than chucking them off a cliff in the arctic. Though it's certainly not unreasonable to think Superman killed them. That's what Lester's cut indicates.

[CaptainLiberty76]

I always thought that Superman killed all three of them at the end of the film. There was no indication in the film that Superman was setting any kind of trap beyond taking away their powers. So what we see is Superman luring them to the fortress, using the device we saw earlier in the film that took his powers away, then tossing the three criminals into a pit so deep their screams fade away. It's established with the hand crushing that Zod's powers are gone. There was no indication anywhere in the film that Superman had access to the Phantom Zone. He tossed the three kryptonian criminals off an icy cliff into oblivion. Seriously, their screams faded out. That's not a soft landing or sliding into a prison cell. That's falling so far that you can't hear them anymore. Hitting anything at that great a fall is a death sentence. People break their necks falling 10 feet off a ladder. Being tossed off a cliff would kill any normal person, which Zod and crew became. Then, they are never seen again. Sounds pretty final to me.

I had no idea that there was an additional scene with them being arrested or that Donner's intent was to have them captured. Not until fairly recently, at least. Nothing in the original film indicates any of that. Everyone I knew thought Superman killed them at the end of the film. That's what movie heroes do, take out the bad guy. So I think that's what is expected. I like the idea that Superman captured the criminals and turned them over much better than chucking them off a cliff in the arctic. Though it's certainly not unreasonable to think Superman killed them. That's what Lester's cut indicates.

Geez...have any of you ever READ a Superman comic of THAT era? Do any of you have a grasp of the core character of the Man of Steel? Superman has NEVER just casually killed anyone--as some indicate he and Lois did with the PZC's in SUPERMAN II. Permit me to spell it out for you: 1) Zod, Ursa and Non fell into a crevasse and it appears in the Lester version that they vanished (their screams faded away as they were once again sent to the PZ); 2) we didn't see Supes prep the chamber reversal or the silly cellophane S-shields, so we have no idea what tech he did have in the Fortress (it isn't beyond the scope of possibility that the final reserves of Kryptonian tech were used to open a portal to the PZ (after all in the comics of that era Supes did have access to the PZ); 3) the Superman of that era (or even of our present-day) does not treat killing/death in such a cavalier attitude as you would have to accept by his and Lois's almost whimsical reactions as the PZC's fell into the crevasse or (as I saw it then and now) a PZ portal. Yes Superman takes out the bad guys--but he does not casually kill them and then smile about it. Superman's character is that of a hero who does NOT kill if he has any other choice and if he is forced to kill as a final option he does NOT smile about it (even in MoS when forced to kill Zod he is tormented and in absolute anguish by the action he had to take).

It IS unreasonable to think that Superman killed them if you are in any way a fan of the character (particularly of that era). If one thinks that Superman killed the PZC's and then had a laugh with his girlfriend at the sight of their death's, I think it says MORE about the observer than the film. Superman simply does not casually murder his opponents--it is against his morality and his character (even MoS showed this). When I originally saw the film back in the day I will admit it was somewhat ambiguous; but with my knowledge and understanding of the core and soul of the hero, I KNEW that Superman did not kill them--his subsequent reactions there in the Fortress put the lie to that fallacy. In the Donner cut (which is NOT canon) we see the 3 PZC's hauled off, so Donner had not meant for them to die and the inference in the Lester version is that they vanished as they fell--NOT that they fall until they hit bottom and died. As I said--if you think they died that says more about you and perhaps a poor understanding of the Superman of that era which Reeve embodied. A bit of imagination is always good to have, as well as a basic understanding of the concept of the character, when watching a Superman film.