Superman II: Death of the Phantom Zone Criminals or Capture?

[Kurosawa]

I have a concept of all these things, and that's exactly what I think. Sorry, but the scene, as it is presented, gives me no reason to believe they survived.

Then Superman and Lois Lane would both be completely immoral, insane and completely without any sort of humanity whatsoever. And I'm pretty sure that was not how that scene was meant to be taken. You kill two people and let a third die and it's time for laughs? When they were completely neutralized and posed no threat? It's not like Bond's gallows humor after he kills, and besides, Bond is supposed to be a killer-and not a killing only when necessary killer, either.

[The Beast]

They did survive in Donner's. We've seen the scene in the Donner rerelease that proves it.

That scene was deleted; Donner could have inserted it if he wanted to but he didn't. They fell to their death in the gorge just like Lester's, then Superman used his heat vision to destroy the Fortress and bury them under the rubble. They died and then were un-killed when Superman turned back time again but he still killed them. His "other way" depends on some deus ex machina exploit, which is hardly inspiring and completely pretentious.

What really made me laugh about the ending to Donner's cut, aside from the fact that Perry White brushes his teeth while smoking a cigar, was after Superman turned back time again, he still goes to the diner to beat up the bully, despite the fact that from the bully's perspective he never laid a hand on Clark before that moment. From the bully's perspective he's eating his dinner and some guy with glasses demands his seat. He has every right to defend his position and yet Superman still beats him senseless.

[The Beast]

Then Superman and Lois Lane would both be completely immoral, insane and completely without any sort of humanity whatsoever.

Only if we abide by your subjective view of what humanity is.

[The Beast]

And I think the same about those who so badly want to defend killing that they project their own biases. Works both ways.

Not at all, the conclusion I reached was the result of taking the movie at face value. There was no projection on my part because I didn't fill in the blanks with assumptions to make sense of what I observed.

Other than what happens to a body if it falls into a gorge and I hear the voice trail off without hitting bottom.

[ABH]

This might be the one time I agree with Kurosawa...

Ignoring what Superman did to Zod, for a moment, I really doubt Superman would let Lois punch Ursa and have her fall to her death. Superman killing Zod? Maybe. Letting Lois become a murderer? No.

I think the "falling into a gorge and hearing a voice trail off without hitting bottom" was just a poor choice in the movie -- I doubt anyone that worked on the movie thought that people would be arguing about that, decades later.

I mean, if the "trailing off voice" was always meant to be part of the film, and the deleted scene with the arctic police/arrest of the PZ criminals, was originally meant to be part of the film, then the "ahhhhhhhhhhh...." doesn't really prove that they died.

[Mbast1]

Not at all, the conclusion I reached was the result of taking the movie at face value. There was no projection on my part because I didn't fill in the blanks with assumptions to make sense of what I observed.

Yes, you did. You know NOTHING about what happened to them after they fell, but insist that you do. That is filling in the blanks. It's a superhero movie, anything was possible. We don't know.

And this is why it's pointless to argue beyond a certain point. People aren't listening, they're just defending their positions.

[Mbast1]

I think the "falling into a gorge and hearing a voice trail off without hitting bottom" was just a poor choice in the movie -- I doubt anyone that worked on the movie thought that people would be arguing about that, decades later.

I loved that movie as a kid, saw it 4 times opening weekend. I've watched it since, and still enjoy it. But the more I think about it, the worse it seems. Not awful, still fun, but flawed in storytelling.

[Kurosawa]

Only if we abide by your subjective view of what humanity is.

Viewing the murder of depowered, unarmed and neutralized people as immoral and insane is hardly subjective.

[cgh]

Viewing the murder of depowered, unarmed and neutralized people as immoral and insane is hardly subjective.

That means you consider any government that has ever instituted capital punishment as such. That's the great majority of governments and their supporting populations that have ever existed in the history of humanity. I'm not a supporter of capital punishment but even so, that seems like a stretch to me. I think using terms like "immoral" is particularly unproductive.

Anyway, as a kid watching it, I simply assumed they died, as bad guys do, and we had no issues with it. As far as I know, I'm not insane.

[The Beast]

This might be the one time I agree with Kurosawa...

Ignoring what Superman did to Zod, for a moment, I really doubt Superman would let Lois punch Ursa and have her fall to her death. Superman killing Zod? Maybe. Letting Lois become a murderer? No.

I think the "falling into a gorge and hearing a voice trail off without hitting bottom" was just a poor choice in the movie -- I doubt anyone that worked on the movie thought that people would be arguing about that, decades later.

I doubt anyone back in 1980 had a problem with movie villains falling to their deaths. None of us kids did.

I mean, if the "trailing off voice" was always meant to be part of the film, and the deleted scene with the arctic police/arrest of the PZ criminals, was originally meant to be part of the film, then the "ahhhhhhhhhhh...." doesn't really prove that they died.

Except that what was originally meant to be part of the film, is irrelevant. All that matters is what made the final cut.

[Dispenser Of Truth]

Except that what was originally meant to be part of the film, is irrelevant. All that matters is what made the final cut.

Yes. But that does make it part of the Donner cut.

[The Beast]

Yes, you did. You know NOTHING about what happened to them after they fell, but insist that you do. That is filling in the blanks. It's a superhero movie, anything was possible. We don't know.

And this is why it's pointless to argue beyond a certain point. People aren't listening, they're just defending their positions.

My assumption about what happened after they fell is reasonable. Everything else is a huge stretch.

[The Beast]

Yes. But that does make it part of the Donner cut.

What are you talking about? Un-killing them or watching them get carted off by UN police?

[The Beast]

Viewing the murder of depowered, unarmed and neutralized people as immoral and insane is hardly subjective.

Tell that to Seal Team Six.

[Mbast1]

My assumption about what happened after they fell is reasonable. Everything else is a huge stretch.

We know they fell, that was on the screen. Anything beyond that is a stretch, either way.

Ever read the scripts? They show the villains were meant to live. Doesn't change what we saw on the screen, but what was on the screen doesn't tell us either way. I think they lived, and given what we saw on the screen, I didn't see anything that contradicts that. Neither did you. Anything beyond what we saw IS a guess, as much you as me.