The Minority Report! Diversity In The MU.

[Trident]

I refuse to "praise" someone for occasionally doing the right thing while -- mostly -- doing it wrong. Ironically enough, if it weren't for these film properties Marvel might still be struggling with bankruptcy, so I don't see where "hiring the best candidates" fits into this given their track record of losing money with their -- mostly -- "non-diverse" comic book staff.

Yeah....you didn't catch what I was saying but instead took that as they are "justified" for not hiring diverse men and women.

Which is why I'm leaving this one alone. Lol

[aja_christopher]

Yeah....you didn't catch what I was saying but instead took that as they are "justified" for not hiring diverse men and women.

Which is why I'm leaving this one alone. Lol

There's nothing really wrong with you stating your opinion but ultimately all I did was respond to Harrison's inquiry with an inquiry of my own: if a person is going to bring up "numbers" and "quotas" and the like, then I feel that they should also be fair in examining ALL of the "diversity" issues at hand (cinematic aspects, writing/editorial duties, LGBT representation, etc) rather than just those they see as worth discussing.

If you feel that Marvel is doing as much to hire "diverse" people as it is to promote them on the printed page, then there's not much point in debating the issue -- I was simply pointing out that whatever they might be doing (or not doing) the matter is still worth examining with regards to "diverse" representation.

That said, I don't work at Marvel (which is kind of my point as well) so I'll likewise admit that I can't say with any certainty whether they are "hiring the best people for the job" or not... I was just saying that it would be good to see more diversity on both sides of the spectrum, which is something I think we both can agree on.

[Tiamatty]

Creed is scum. Having Creed on the Avengers is like having the Red Skull start dating Kitty Pryde. Daken would have made more sense especially after the last story arc. Still love this line up. Secretly hoping that Drumm manages to seperate Simon from Rogue and into Vision's body, and then have Si Vision leave Wanda for Rogue. Just old scholl X-men soap opera junk. And if Wanda needs a shoulder to cry on, I am sure Y2Voodoo can save her

I just want Wonder Man outside Rogue's body and her power back to normal. We do not need a rehash of the same damned "can't touch anyone" story she spent 25 frigging years doing. That story's been told. There is absolutely nothing new that could ever possibly be added to it. It does not need to be done again. A temporary thing that helped her against the Red Skull in Axis? OK, fine, I can accept that. But please, in the name of Odin, end it and get her power back under control!

[HUTHAIFA]

I just want Wonder Man outside Rogue's body and her power back to normal. We do not need a rehash of the same damned "can't touch anyone" story she spent 25 frigging years doing. That story's been told. There is absolutely nothing new that could ever possibly be added to it. It does not need to be done again. A temporary thing that helped her against the Red Skull in Axis? OK, fine, I can accept that. But please, in the name of Odin, end it and get her power back under control!

I think Rogue needs a flaw, or she just uber powerful swiss army knife woman. I need some tragedy with the character to keep me interested.

[Tiamatty]

I think Rogue needs a flaw, or she just uber powerful swiss army knife woman. I need some tragedy with the character to keep me interested.

Not having any permanent powers arguably counts as a flaw. Sure, she can use anyone's power, and that gives her immense potential. But without borrowed power, she's just a woman who's decent at fighting.

She also has some character flaws. She can often be a bit reckless, when she's not in a position of authority. She's something of an action junkie, and hates being placed in reserve - she always wants to be in the front line, which could easily cause her to behave in slightly irresponsible ways.

But putting her back to not being able to control her power? That's not giving her a flaw, that's rehashing the same story that defined her for a solid quarter-century. It's reversing her growth, in order to get even more mileage out of old angst.

[ExcelsiorPrime]

you've never read the issues have you

Of Course I did. One hit after being curb stomped is not vindication. Because you are new to this..let me show you what vindication looks like.









Spot the difference?? Remender's Doctor Voodoo one punch and speechifying isn't the same as showing multiple panels of hero beating the villain.

Show don't tell. Is the first rule in writing.

And When Doom beat drum he beat him like a Drum. Literally.

[Mr MajestiK]

Of Course I did. One hit after being curb stomped is not vindication. Because you are new to this..let me show you what vindication looks like.









Spot the difference?? Remender's Doctor Voodoo one punch and speechifying isn't the same as showing multiple panels of hero beating the villain.

Show don't tell. Is the first rule in writing.

And When Doom beat drum he beat him like a Drum. Literally.

Preach it, muy hermano.

[Tiamatty]

Of Course I did. One hit after being curb stomped is not vindication. Because you are new to this..let me show you what vindication looks like.

Spot the difference?? Remender's Doctor Voodoo one punch and speechifying isn't the same as showing multiple panels of hero beating the villain.

Show don't tell. Is the first rule in writing.

And When Doom beat drum he beat him like a Drum. Literally.

So "vindication" means beating the shit out of someone? Huh. Gee, I figured vindication generally meant a person was proven to be justified in their decisions. Voodoo's vindication didn't really come from punching Doom - that was just him getting a bit of catharsis. Voodoo's actual victory was in proving himself the right choice for Sorcerer Supreme.

[Mr MajestiK]

So "vindication" means beating the shit out of someone? Huh. Gee, I figured vindication generally meant a person was proven to be justified in their decisions. Voodoo's vindication didn't really come from punching Doom - that was just him getting a bit of catharsis. Voodoo's actual victory was in proving himself the right choice for Sorcerer Supreme.

Sorcerer Supreme for all of 5 second's.

Mmm hmm. :smh:

And as for the "vindication" thing, superhero comics remain a highly visual medium dependent on hyper kinetic activity merged with great dialogue and impactful storylines which make for an excellent reading experience.

There was nothing compelling about seeing both Jericho Drumm and T'Challa both getting their behinds handed to them by the same villain only for said villain to get a stern telling off and miniscule damage in return.

[HUTHAIFA]

Not having any permanent powers arguably counts as a flaw. Sure, she can use anyone's power, and that gives her immense potential. But without borrowed power, she's just a woman who's decent at fighting.

She also has some character flaws. She can often be a bit reckless, when she's not in a position of authority. She's something of an action junkie, and hates being placed in reserve - she always wants to be in the front line, which could easily cause her to behave in slightly irresponsible ways.

But putting her back to not being able to control her power? That's not giving her a flaw, that's rehashing the same story that defined her for a solid quarter-century. It's reversing her growth, in order to get even more mileage out of old angst.

how.do you feel about ben grimm. Do you prefer stuck as a monster or being able to switch back and forth

[Tiamatty]

how.do you feel about ben grimm. Do you prefer stuck as a monster or being able to switch back and forth

Frankly, I prefer him not angsting about being a monster. I'd prefer he be satisfied with who he is, whether he can change back or not, and that other stories be told. I want characters to grow. I think one of the reasons I care so little about so many of the classic characters is because, often, they're denied real growth. The Thing will always have his monster-angst stories. Some writers may downplay it, but eventually, some writer will always come along and tell the same damned story that defined him for so damned long already. Every time a writer makes the Hulk intelligent, it's always with the understanding that it's a temporary thing before another writer makes him a mindless rage monster again.

The problem, I think, is that many writers want to write the characters they grew up loving. Often, that also means writing that version of the character. Writing the stories they loved. It's why the X-Men franchise can't seem to get away from the Phoenix. It's why Spider-Man was turned back into being a bachelor. It's why Remender put Rogue back to having superstrength, flight and no control of her absorbing power.

Hopefully, this does mean that, in a couple decades, people raised on New X-Men and Young Avengers and general pushes for diversity will make diversity an integral part of their whole approach to comics.

[Kieran_Frost]

So "vindication" means beating the shit out of someone? Huh. Gee, I figured vindication generally meant a person was proven to be justified in their decisions. Voodoo's vindication didn't really come from punching Doom - that was just him getting a bit of catharsis. Voodoo's actual victory was in proving himself the right choice for Sorcerer Supreme.

THIS! So much this! Jericho saved the world AND proved Doom wrong at the same time (the punch wasn't the victory, the victory was humbling Doom -- which let's be honest, will hurt Doom longer).

The arguement Doom curbed stomped Jericho is hilarious rubbish spouted by people who clearly didn't read the comic (otherwise they'd know just saying "he was curbed stopped" is ignoring the whole rest of what came before).

Let's do this in order:
1. Jericho uses up nearly all his strength and power taking out Dormammu for good, sealing him away for all eternity
2. despite Strange's warnings to stay in his sanctum while he recovers, Jericho says a SS doesn't shy away from danger, and he has patients to see
3. seconds later (so not even 2 minutes after using up the vast majority of his strength) Jericho is attacked by Marinette Bwa-Chech; who he defeats
4. seconds after that (so after he has used up all his strength against Dormammu, one of the most powerful magic users in Marvel AND still finds the power to defeat a powerful sorceress) Doom attacks

So Doom, a master planner, attacks when Jericho is at his weakest! Doom vs. Voodoo both at full power is still an even fight, but when Jericho is weakest? So Doom comes, wins in seconds and leaves right? Because Jericho, so incredibly weakened from his battles, wouldn't stand a chance? WRONG!!! Jericho and Doom duke it out for AGES!!! They battle across numerous dimensions, falling through world after world. It says in the comic, it could have been for months!!! THIS IS DOOM!!! Jericho survived against one of the biggest supervillains in the MU, even though he was incredibly weak.







Doom attacks, Jericho teleports them away (saving people). THAT is a victory. Doom springs his trap with energy slugs, Jericho changes the setting again, driving them both through time and space, thwarting Doom's trap. THAT is a victory. He disabled some of Doom's armour. He fights him for ages, despite being exhausted. THAT is a huge achievement. The only way someone sees this as "curb stomping" is basically using the mentality if a hero ever loses it's curb stomping. Which would makes comics very dull indeed. Does that look like curbing stomping to you? Battling him for days, even years? Powerless and drained, yet still Doom doesn't prevail easily. And let's not forget another point: DOOM FAILS!!! Doom did all this to get the Eye; and he doesn't get it. Doom fails! And remember this is Doom. He gives Sentry trouble. He gives Loki the god of mischief trouble. But giving an incredibly weakened Jericho; who is cut of from the Loa, who is exhausted (it says it in the friggin' comic), who has taken numerous magical blast from three different sorcerers including Doom... giving him trouble? Is curb stomping? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Everyone should either read the book, or take their ill-informed false comments elsewhere!

P.S. BOOM!!! :P

[Greg]

I will also say that Strange did indicate that Voodoo not only was weak from trapping Dormammu, but he was also weak from not sleeping or rest for quite some time.

[Kieran_Frost]

I will also say that Strange did indicate that Voodoo not only was weak from trapping Dormammu, but he was also weak from not sleeping or rest for quite some time.

Excellent point, thank-you. He was not sleeping because he was constantly travelling, using his new status to help people and stop evil. And the event that followed happened soon after this, right? So actually every feat that came after this is just incredible achievement after incredible achievement. Months of fighting the world's magic users in Latvia (and starting from a point of utter exhaustion); my god Jericho is a machine!!! So glad to have him back (under the pen of Remender, who gives him major props/skills).

[mugiwara]

Spot the difference?? Remender's Doctor Voodoo one punch and speechifying isn't the same as showing multiple panels of hero beating the villain.

Show don't tell. Is the first rule in writing.

And When Doom beat drum he beat him like a Drum. Literally.

Using as an example Garth Ennis' wet dream of Punisher slaughtering the Marvel Universe kinda ruins the argument.