The Minority Report! Diversity In The MU.

[Marvell2100]

Your response is definitely in line with how I feel about the subject myself.

No on'e suggesting a quota system at all.

Certainly not the people who are advocating more diversity bro.

[Marvell2100]

What I do not want, and will always speak out against, is the notion that an inferior talent gains a scarce assignment merely on the basis of their ethnicity or alleged "perspective".

There's a lot of "inferior talent" in comics right now who aren't a minority.

[ShadowDemon]

one of the most important lessons to getting a job or getting into your career, is networking. who you know will get you there more reliably than your 'talent' or skill. this is especially true for the media/ent/music/art field.

biases and systemic isms in hiring and assessment shouldn't be downplayed or hand-waved away

Then you must agree with those of us who are decrying the deliberate push for "diversity" appointments both "in front of" and "behind" the product, because that is exactly what that is: biases, only "inverted".

Your response is definitely in line with how I feel about the subject myself.

No on'e suggesting a quota system at all.

Yet that is the inevitable result of all calls for "diversity" or "affirmative action", because sooner or later someone starts "counting beans" and comes out with the argument "you have [x] many of [y] and [z] many of [a]" and that doesn't 'represent' the minority population adequately."

The only effective defense businesses and others accused of "discrimination" or "not being diverse enough" have ever been able to come up with is pre-emptively capping and/or pre-reserving numbers of slots for various groups, ie "quotas".

It happens all the time in real life, whether it's job openings, college admissions, etc, and it will happen in terms of comic book characters. It HAS to.

[7thangel]

So you feel her different "perspective" (whatever that means) justifies picking her over a better creative whose group you feel is over-represented?

That sort of "group identity" based on an arbitrary characteristic like skin color, gender, etc. is destructive. That sort of balkanization inevitably leads to social breakdown and strife.

Especially when it's forced down people's throats from the top for arbitrary reasons.

you mean like the systematic racism and sexism throughout history that has kept that the status quo of straight white males at the top, regardless of qualifications? the system that still openly allows the discrimination based on who someone sleeps with? or does the group identity only refer to minorities and women?

The question that is plaguing the industry at the present time is whether or not scarce slots in production schedules should be deliberately promised to "diverseify" comics. Or even worse, existing characters should be deliberately altered in radical ways to satisfy "diversity" goals.

as opposed to the usual default of what characters that are put in that slot.

If Kamala Khan is such a compelling character, she should be easily able to forge an identity of her OWN under her own codename, not by co-opting Carol's.

is this true for all characters in the big two that inherited the name from a previous hero/villain?

Are you old enough to remember the Ellen Degeneres Show? VERY funny sit-com. Or it was, until she "came out" and it became "all lesbian humor all the time". Viewers, regardless of their position on gays in general, got sick of hearing nothing but gay jokes and tuned out en masse, causing the show to be cancelled.

Same thing happened a couple of years ago with the Rawhide Kid in comics. Readers didn't want a book that went out of it's way to "show the flag" for homosexuality, and it failed. Which isn't to say that readers were necessarily "anti gay". Other gay characters (such as Northstar), with far less "preachy" approaches, quietly continued on about their business.

ignoring the idea that because Ellen might of gone overboard with constantly emphasizing her sexuality, rawhide Kid is nowhere in the same boat. people disliked it because some found it stereotypically offensive, while others found it way too campy. it didn't preach anything. it was rawhide kid as a sitcom-y flamboyantly gay cowboy.

which brings me to...

Believe what you want...the history of how things have turned out previously suggests your belief is incorrect.

because that old ellen sitcom was 'preachy', that means diversity = 'preachy'



it always makes me chuckle when folks talk about quotas, because they never seem to think that those quotas they hate so much, is used to make sure that the vast majority of characters remain white, male and straight.

[7thangel]

Then you must agree with those of us who are decrying the deliberate push for "diversity" appointments both "in front of" and "behind" the product, because that is exactly what that is: biases, only "inverted".

well then, if that is the case, "inverted" biases and all, they're doing a piss poor job.

i do wish there was this much decrying of the systematic isms that have been in place for centuries

[Tiamatty]

So you feel her different "perspective" (whatever that means) justifies picking her over a better creative whose group you feel is over-represented?

That sort of "group identity" based on an arbitrary characteristic like skin color, gender, etc. is destructive. That sort of balkanization inevitably leads to social breakdown and strife.

Especially when it's forced down people's throats from the top for arbitrary reasons.

If someone's universally considered a top-tier talent, then sure, you get that person. But art is subjective. I find Kelly Sue DeConnick to be a better and more interesting writer than Matt Fraction. Other people prefer Fraction. Other people hate them both. Who's right? Who's wrong? Who knows? (Except that I'm right. Obviously.) So when you get a group of writers who are all talented, and there's no real way to objectively determine who's better, you may as well go with the one who brings something different.

More "group identity" thinking. Not to mention being based on false premises. There are plenty of characters of ALL "identities" to be found in comics/

The question that is plaguing the industry at the present time is whether or not scarce slots in production schedules should be deliberately promised to "diverseify" comics. Or even worse, existing characters should be deliberately altered in radical ways to satisfy "diversity" goals.

I object to all forms of "affirmative action" as a matter of moral principle.

Yes, yes, people can identify with any character, blah blah blah. But the average black reader probably finds it easier to identify with Luke Cage than with Captain America, simply because Cage has experiences, attitudes and opinions that are more relevant to those readers. A gay person is going to have an easier time relating to the romance between Wiccan and Hulkling than that between, say, Havok and Wasp. That's not to say they can't still relate to Havok and Wasp's relationship, but there's a pretty good chance they'll find it easier identifying with the couple who are like them. And also, no one is suggesting characters be "radically altered." No one is suggesting that Captain America be replaced by a black lesbian (though the next time they inevitably do a "Steve Rogers quits the Captain America identity and is replaced with someone else," probably during the next Republican presidency, it might be interesting if the temporary replacement was a female or minority character).

And considering the narrowing niche comics make up, I would think looking at whether promoting greater diversity, among characters and creators, would actually be a pretty vital business question.

See what I wrote above, and study the history of the Balkans (and "group identity" movements in general) and you'll have your answer.

Except you didn't really give much of an answer to why it's bad. You said you feel it's morally wrong. But frankly, group identity is inevitable. It's a part of being human. And while it can lead to bad things, so can individualism. Ultimately, it's a matter of degrees.

First, the story of Ms Marvel is the story of Carol Danvers, not Kamala Khan.

If Kamala Khan is such a compelling character, she should be easily able to forge an identity of her OWN under her own codename, not by co-opting Carol's.

No, Carol is Captain Marvel now. Carol's story is being Captain Marvel. Part of Kamala's story includes her being an Avengers fangirl, and her idolization of Carol.

And when I say "the story of Ms. Marvel," I mean the story of the current volume of the Ms. Marvel series. That series is about Kamala Khan.

Are you old enough to remember the Ellen Degeneres Show? VERY funny sit-com. Or it was, until she "came out" and it became "all lesbian humor all the time". Viewers, regardless of their position on gays in general, got sick of hearing nothing but gay jokes and tuned out en masse, causing the show to be cancelled.

Same thing happened a couple of years ago with the Rawhide Kid in comics. Readers didn't want a book that went out of it's way to "show the flag" for homosexuality, and it failed. Which isn't to say that readers were necessarily "anti gay". Other gay characters (such as Northstar), with far less "preachy" approaches, quietly continued on about their business.

I do remember Ellen's sitcom. I remember what a big deal it was when she came out. I honestly can't remember much about it after that, but I also can't remember much before it.

With Rawhide Kid, the problem, from what I've heard, is that it was badly-written and offensive, making the character a stereotype and a joke. But that was one book. The same thing's happened countless times to other characters.

Believe what you want...the history of how things have turned out previously suggests your belief is incorrect.

And I would say the history shows diversity is usually handled pretty well.

Good Way: Sun Girl (currently in New Warriors). Create an interesting character who just happens to have some "diverse" traits. Put her out there and see if the readership responds.

Bad Way: "Black Fury". Samuel L Jackson notwithstanding, Black Nick Fury should never have come to the 616 universe. If people wanted to read about Black Nick Fury, they could read Ultimate titles.

In terms of creators, I really don't care. I want the best, most interesting creators with the best, most interesting characters, and as many of them as the market will support. If that means 100% of the creatives are white/hetro/males, so be it. If that means 90/10 (or whatever percentage) W/H/M to "others", so be it.

What I do not want, and will always speak out against, is the notion that an inferior talent gains a scarce assignment merely on the basis of their ethnicity or alleged "perspective".

It's worth noting that Sun Girl has spoken pretty passionately, a couple times, about embracing diversity. The fact that she's black does actually seem to be a pretty important part of who she is. Which is a good way of doing it, really. She's not "white with a tan" - she's a black woman, and that helps to inform how she views the world, as it does in the real world. She's not written the way she would be if she were a white male character.

Fury, Jr. wasn't about diversity, it was about movie synergy. It's a poor example to use.

And again, "inferior" is often subjective. Given the inherent subjectivity of art, it's worth looking for artists - writers, pencilers and so on - who aren't straight white men, simply to get different approaches to it all.

[Mr MajestiK]

Then you must agree with those of us who are decrying the deliberate push for "diversity" appointments both "in front of" and "behind" the product, because that is exactly what that is: biases, only "inverted".

Correct me if I'm reading this wrong, but your response seems to imply that you have a problem with what you've termed as being "the deliberate push for diversity in front of, and behind the product."

If my assessement of your quote is correct, I find myself wondering whether you're conversely in support of the lack of across the board diversity that's plagued the mainstream comicbook industry from its inception to current times?

The fact that in 2014, the editorial arms of both Marvel and DC are uniformly straight, white and very male is an anachronistic state of affairs that's in need of a major overhaul and to argue against this citing a fictional quota system as a foundation for said argument is somewhat disingenuous and misdirectional to say the least.

As a reader and connisseur of a wide range of books, I expect these stories to be reflective of the very diverse nature of the readership who aren't uniformly White and male.

I don't believe in quota systems and remain firmly convinced that jobs should go to individuals who are fully qualified for said jobs but what happens when fully qualified people get consistently passed over in favour of the close knit, old boys network that have had a stranglehold on the industry for decades?

What happens when the gatekeepers resolutely stay letting their friends and aquaintances onto the field whilst systematically cockblocking everyone else who they feel aren't part of their exclusive club?

One of your previous posts mentioned the fact that Dwayne McDuffie (RIP) was quite successful in other areas of multimedia entertainment but this factor in itself doesn't negate the reality that Dwayne McDuffie having grown disgusted with the way he'd been disrespected and misrepresented by DC, decided to focus his attention on other things rather than waste his time beating his head against DC's glass ceiling.

The fact that in the wake of his untimely death, some of the main industry people who messed him up were so effusive with their praise of his genius and professionalism was hypocritically self serving and nauseating to say the least.

At the end of the day, things have to change as far as the lack of real diversity at the editorial/writing level is concerned and that's the bottom line.

Yet that is the inevitable result of all calls for "diversity" or "affirmative action", because sooner or later someone starts "counting beans" and comes out with the argument "you have [x] many of [y] and [z] many of [a]" and that doesn't 'represent' the minority population adequately."

The only effective defense businesses and others accused of "discrimination" or "not being diverse enough" have ever been able to come up with is pre-emptively capping and/or pre-reserving numbers of slots for various groups, ie "quotas".

It happens all the time in real life, whether it's job openings, college admissions, etc, and it will happen in terms of comic book characters. It HAS to.

In other words, it's business as usual or musical chairs featuring the same individuals over and over again....

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p...ticle&id=52712

[Marvell2100]

The term quotas and agendas usually wind up getting mentioned in threads dealing with diversity. If a white straight male character is introduced in comics, is it considered normal or is that an agenda? However, it's no doubt to some people that the introduction of any kind of minority character is an attempt to appease minority fans or fans in general who prefer to have a diversified presence in the comics they read. Minorities couldn't be created simply because they are interesting or amazing characters. No, to some they are merely there to fill an editorial quota.

[Tiamatty]

I don't believe in quota systems and remain firmly convinced that jobs should go to individuals who are fully qualified for said jobs but what happens when fully qualified people get consistently passed over in favour of the close knit, old boys network that have had a stranglehold on the industry for decades?

What happens when the gatekeepers resolutely stay letting their friends and aquaintances onto the field whilst systematically cockblocking everyone else who they feel aren't part of their exclusive club?

To add to this: A major qualification tends to be experience. Someone who has a lot of experience as an editor or a manager is obviously going to be more qualified for those positions than someone who has little experience. Those positions have traditionally gone primary to white men. This creates a vicious circle where women and minorities, because they're so seldom hired to those positions, continue to not be hired to those positions. The only way to break that circle is to just hire women and minorities, even if they're less qualified on paper (though still reasonably qualified, obviously).

[Marvell2100]

Correct me if I'm reading this wrong, but your response seems to imply that you have a problem with what you've termed as being "the deliberate push for diversity in front of, and behind the product."

If my assessement of your quote is correct, I find myself wondering whether you're conversely in support of the lack of across the board diversity that's plagued the mainstream comicbook industry from its inception to current times?

The fact that in 2014, the editorial arms of both Marvel and DC are uniformly straight, white and very male is an anachronistic state of affairs that's in need of a major overhaul and to argue against this citing a fictional quota system as a foundation for said argument is somewhat disingenuous and misdirectional to say the least.

As a reader and connisseur of a wide range of books, I expect these stories to be reflective of the very diverse nature of the readership who aren't uniformly White and male.

I don't believe in quota systems and remain firmly convinced that jobs should go to individuals who are fully qualified for said jobs but what happens when fully qualified people get consistently passed over in favour of the close knit, old boys network that have had a stranglehold on the industry for decades?

What happens when the gatekeepers resolutely stay letting their friends and aquaintances onto the field whilst systematically cockblocking everyone else who they feel aren't part of their exclusive club?

One of your previous posts mentioned the fact that Dwayne McDuffie (RIP) was quite successful in other areas of multimedia entertainment but this factor in itself doesn't negate the reality that Dwayne McDuffie having grown disgusted with the way he'd been disrespected and misrepresented by DC, decided to focus his attention on other things rather than waste his time beating his head against DC's glass ceiling.

The fact that in the wake of his untimely death, some of the main industry people who messed him up were so effusive with their praise of his genius and professionalism was hypocritically self serving and nauseating to say the least.

At the end of the day, things have to change as far as the lack of real diversity at the editorial/writing level is concerned and that's the bottom line.

In other words, it's business as usual.

QFT. Summed up very nicely.

[Mr MajestiK]

To add to this: A major qualification tends to be experience. Someone who has a lot of experience as an editor or a manager is obviously going to be more qualified for those positions than someone who has little experience. Those positions have traditionally gone primary to white men. This creates a vicious circle where women and minorities, because they're so seldom hired to those positions, continue to not be hired to those positions. The only way to break that circle is to just hire women and minorities, even if they're less qualified on paper (though still reasonably qualified, obviously).

The only problem I'd have with hiring someone "less qualified on paper" is that it would potentially play into the hands of diversity detractors looking for any excuse to criticize.

To me, the argument that most of said detractors raise about "hiring the best/most qualified person for the job" rings false in the face of so many editorial/writer snafu's that tend to get overlooked as writers with repeated flops keep getting multiple opportunities to ply their trade.

We've had actual writers of colour posting on CBR about some of the negative encounters they'd had with editors in the past, and there were still individuals popping up who questioned whether these writers works were of acceptable quality rather than accept that there are problems at the apex of the creative pyramid.

[Marvell2100]

I don't believe in quota systems and remain firmly convinced that jobs should go to individuals who are fully qualified for said jobs but what happens when fully qualified people get consistently passed over in favour of the close knit, old boys network that have had a stranglehold on the industry for decades?

What happens when the gatekeepers resolutely stay letting their friends and aquaintances onto the field whilst systematically cockblocking everyone else who they feel aren't part of their exclusive club?

At the end of the day, things have to change as far as the lack of real diversity at the editorial/writing level is concerned and that's the bottom line.

To add to this: A major qualification tends to be experience. Someone who has a lot of experience as an editor or a manager is obviously going to be more qualified for those positions than someone who has little experience. Those positions have traditionally gone primary to white men. This creates a vicious circle where women and minorities, because they're so seldom hired to those positions, continue to not be hired to those positions. The only way to break that circle is to just hire women and minorities, even if they're less qualified on paper (though still reasonably qualified, obviously).

Also some people forget that there used to be affirmative action and quotas long before it applied to minorities. It was called the Good Ol' Boys Club and is still exists today.

This thread isn't about nor will it ever be about limiting minority representation or participation. And it's not about substituting or replacing white straight males with minorities. It's about fair and equal representation and opportunities for everyone. That means in the pages and in the creative and executive boardrooms.

[Mr MajestiK]

QFT. Summed up very nicely.

And let's not forget Christopher J. Priest (formerly Jim Owsley) who was actually Marvel's first (and only) Editor of African-American extraction.

Post his critically acclaimed Marvel Knights Black Panther solo series, when was the last time offered him another editorial gig?

Hell, I know I'd pay good money to read an X-book or two written by Christopher J. Priest but what's the likelihood of something like that ever happening?

[Mr MajestiK]

Also some people forget that there used to be affirmative action and quotas long before it applied to minorities. It was called the Good Ol' Boys Club and is still exists today.

This thread isn't about nor will it ever be about limiting minority representation or participation. And it's not about substituting or replacing white straight males with minorities. It's about fair and equal representation and opportunities for everyone. That means in the pages and in the creative and executive boardrooms.

QFT. Summed up very nicely.

I found this particular exchange quite interesting and revealing particularly as regards to the popular misconception as to which movie really set of the MCU revolution.

Albert Ching: Ever since 2000 and the "X-Men" movie taking off and creating a wave that we're still riding of comic book-based movies having major success, people have wondered, is there a ceiling for this? Is there a burnout point? It seems there definitely hasn't been yet. TV is a different world, though. Do you see there being as much room for comic book-based television shows to thrive as much as there has been in movies?

Quesada: I think there's tons of room. It's all a matter of variety. By the way, you bring up the "X-Men" movie -- I would say it happened before this. I think that "Blade" was the real eye-opener for a lot of people, because "Blade" was a comic book-based movie that did incredibly well, but it was a movie that did incredibly well based on a character that wasn't all that popular or remotely iconic. What he was was a great character who was perfect for reinterpretation. I think people looked at that and said, "Wow, there is stuff to be mined here." Imagine you take a character like this, who wasn't immensely popular, but you did a little bit of a twist here and there, and it worked for the big screen. What happens when you take something that's already immensely popular and iconic?

I just think it's a matter of approach, making sure that the material is great. Our fans view them as comic book-based movies, but I think a lot of people in the general public don't necessarily view them as, "I'm going to the next big comic book movie." They look at them as, "I'm going to the next big action-adventure summer blockbuster."

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p...ticle&id=52717

The first Blade movie came out in 1998, a full two years before the first X-Men movie but for unknown reasons some people choose to ignore this fact and act like everything started with the X-movies. :smh:

Major respect to Joe Quesada for setting the record straight and giving credit where credit is due.

[ed2962]

Correct me if I'm reading this wrong, but your response seems to imply that you have a problem with what you've termed as being "the deliberate push for diversity in front of, and behind the product."

If my assessement of your quote is correct, I find myself wondering whether you're conversely in support of the lack of across the board diversity that's plagued the mainstream comicbook industry from its inception to current times?

The fact that in 2014, the editorial arms of both Marvel and DC are uniformly straight, white and very male is an anachronistic state of affairs that's in need of a major overhaul and to argue against this citing a fictional quota system as a foundation for said argument is somewhat disingenuous and misdirectional to say the least.

As a reader and connisseur of a wide range of books, I expect these stories to be reflective of the very diverse nature of the readership who aren't uniformly White and male.

I don't believe in quota systems and remain firmly convinced that jobs should go to individuals who are fully qualified for said jobs but what happens when fully qualified people get consistently passed over in favour of the close knit, old boys network that have had a stranglehold on the industry for decades?

What happens when the gatekeepers resolutely stay letting their friends and aquaintances onto the field whilst systematically cockblocking everyone else who they feel aren't part of their exclusive club?

One of your previous posts mentioned the fact that Dwayne McDuffie (RIP) was quite successful in other areas of multimedia entertainment but this factor in itself doesn't negate the reality that Dwayne McDuffie having grown disgusted with the way he'd been disrespected and misrepresented by DC, decided to focus his attention on other things rather than waste his time beating his head against DC's glass ceiling.

The fact that in the wake of his untimely death, some of the main industry people who messed him up were so effusive with their praise of his genius and professionalism was hypocritically self serving and nauseating to say the least.

At the end of the day, things have to change as far as the lack of real diversity at the editorial/writing level is concerned and that's the bottom line.




In other words, it's business as usual or musical chairs featuring the same individuals over and over again....

In regards to the bold, there are a handful of notable exceptions to that. I think just as important, you still have to have a corporate culture that accepts new ideas from those diverse staffers. I won't put the link here cuz this is a Marvel thread but in a different thread, someone gave a link to a former female editor from DC. During her time there, she had to deal with harassment, and felt much of the time afraid to speak up and when she did speak up her voice was ignored. We need a change behind the scenes, but we also need a willingness to change the status quo.

Having said that, I agree with close to 90% of your post.