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  1. #631
    Astonishing Member Kasper Cole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiamatty View Post
    The thing is, I feel like the people who aren't aware of their privilege are probably more likely to be jerks. The people whining about "they took our jobs!" are unaware of their privilege. The people who supported New York's Stop and Frisk were unaware of their privilege. The people trying to make same-sex marriage illegal are unaware. The guys who sexually harass women are unaware. People who throw out slurs, rape threats and the rest are unaware.

    Obviously, people shouldn't be apologizing if they haven't personally wronged you. That's just silly. But I think being aware of the system being rigged in one's favour is something that's important to keep in mind in general.
    And the thing is, NOBODY is asking for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alvarez View Post
    Pretty much how I feel.

    Basically don't make me out to be a tool to make yourself feel better.
    Which does happen from time to time and it just sucks.

    I'm a person, not a magical dancing Mexican who'll make your burden diminish.
    LMAO

    The lesser known counterpart of the Magical negro.

  2. #632
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiamatty View Post
    And I'm sure most people who are aware of white privilege (and other kinds of privilege) are trying to make the best lives they can for themselves. Everyone does. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't make it easier for everyone to do the same thing.

    And obviously, there's a lot of limits to what a lot of normal people can do. I'm not exactly rolling in money or influence. My options are limited. But I can buy comics that I feel promote diversity.

    I try not to treat anyone different based on gender, race or sexuality. That's just being condescending, and I prefer to save my condescension for Internet debates. But it's not a matter of personal interactions. Privilege is about systemic inequalities, and we should be aspiring to eliminate those inequalities, even in something as minor and inconsequential as comic books.


    The thing is, I feel like the people who aren't aware of their privilege are probably more likely to be jerks. The people whining about "they took our jobs!" are unaware of their privilege. The people who supported New York's Stop and Frisk were unaware of their privilege. The people trying to make same-sex marriage illegal are unaware. The guys who sexually harass women are unaware. People who throw out slurs, rape threats and the rest are unaware.

    Obviously, people shouldn't be apologizing if they haven't personally wronged you. That's just silly. But I think being aware of the system being rigged in one's favour is something that's important to keep in mind in general.
    I respect you for speaking out openly on this matter -- a lot of people would rather pretend that such problems don't even exist.

  3. #633
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    "Is A Black Panther Film or TV Project Announcement on the Horizon? Evidence Says It's Likely"

    Over at the Marvel website right now, you'll find a new multi-part Black Panther character retrospective, starting from his initial intro in 1966, in "Fantastic Four #52" by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby, through the present incarnation of the black superhero from the fictional African nation of Wakanda.

    Part 1, which was published on Marvel's website 3 days ago (June 2) takes readers "back to the formative days of T’Challa" (aka Black Panther) with an in-depth account from writer Don McGregor. And part 2, published yesterday (June 4) chronicles "T’Challa’s formative appearances and seminal 1970’s adventures."

    The end of part 2 promises a part 3 that will pick up where part 2 closes, following the character into the 1990’s. I suppose there'll be a 4th and likely final chapter, which will continue and end in the present day.

    I mention this here because, first, it provides a quick and tidy education for those of us not familiar with the character's background, and the Marvel universe he belongs to overall; but also because I'm speculating here that Marvel is doing this now in anticipation of what might be an announcement of a Black Panther movie or TV project (finally!) after years of rumors and conjecture..."


    panther.jpg

    http://blogs.indiewire.com/shadowand...ays-its-likely

  4. #634
    Astonishing Member Kasper Cole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aja_christopher View Post
    "Is A Black Panther Film or TV Project Announcement on the Horizon? Evidence Says It's Likely"

    Over at the Marvel website right now, you'll find a new multi-part Black Panther character retrospective, starting from his initial intro in 1966, in "Fantastic Four #52" by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby, through the present incarnation of the black superhero from the fictional African nation of Wakanda.

    Part 1, which was published on Marvel's website 3 days ago (June 2) takes readers "back to the formative days of T’Challa" (aka Black Panther) with an in-depth account from writer Don McGregor. And part 2, published yesterday (June 4) chronicles "T’Challa’s formative appearances and seminal 1970’s adventures."

    The end of part 2 promises a part 3 that will pick up where part 2 closes, following the character into the 1990’s. I suppose there'll be a 4th and likely final chapter, which will continue and end in the present day.

    I mention this here because, first, it provides a quick and tidy education for those of us not familiar with the character's background, and the Marvel universe he belongs to overall; but also because I'm speculating here that Marvel is doing this now in anticipation of what might be an announcement of a Black Panther movie or TV project (finally!) after years of rumors and conjecture..."


    panther.jpg

    http://blogs.indiewire.com/shadowand...ays-its-likely
    Refuse to get my hopes up.....

    If it happens great, but i'm not expecting it at all..

    The list of candidates for the Ant-Man film is a bit disheartening also. It's like they're not even considering giving minorities a shot to direct that film.

  5. #635
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper Cole View Post
    Refuse to get my hopes up.....

    If it happens great, but i'm not expecting it at all..

    The list of candidates for the Ant-Man film is a bit disheartening also. It's like they're not even considering giving minorities a shot to direct that film.

    I feel the same way. Marvel doing a retrospective means nothing as far as a movie being being made.

    As far as minority directors go, Tim Story did do the Fantastic Four movies, but yeah...there should be room for more than just him when it comes to these films.

  6. #636
    Astonishing Member Kasper Cole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    I feel the same way. Marvel doing a retrospective means nothing as far as a movie being being made.

    As far as minority directors go, Tim Story did do the Fantastic Four movies, but yeah...there should be room for more than just him when it comes to these films.
    I actually think Tim Story should be considered for Ant-Man. It's unfair that he gets the full blame for movie when it's well known at this point that Fox meddled heavily with their blockbuster films.

  7. #637
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper Cole View Post
    I actually think Tim Story should be considered for Ant-Man. It's unfair that he gets the full blame for movie when it's well known at this point that Fox meddled heavily with their blockbuster films.
    Definitely. And I don't think FF2 was a bad film at all. FF1 was underwhelming but it wasn't terrible especially considering the constraints the cast and crew had to work with. And it did well enuff that a sequel was possible, so hating on Tim doesn't make much sense.

    On the other hand, I'm not sure Tim wants to do another Marvel film seeing how well his post FF films have done. He might feel like he doesn't need the hassle anymore.

  8. #638
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    This is my first post in this thread. I check in from time to time but not regularly because in general threads like this, while sometimes encouraging good discussion, just end up going in circles. I would like to state some opinions and ask some questions though.

    1. For those keeping track of the number of minority characters and creators in comics, why do you do it? Do you feel it adds to or takes away from your enjoyment of comics?

    2. What is the ultimate goal/standard (don't know if this is the right word but hopefully you get my point) you are hoping is achieved? Are you truly looking for "x" number of minority groups to be represented in an equal percentage? This percentage would vary depending on the number of minority groups you are looking for. Or are you looking simply for 50% white, 50% non-white regardless of the number of minority groups represented?

    3. Will you purchase a comic simply because it has a minority character or creator?

    4. Is it acceptable if a minority character is given the mantle of an existing non-minority character (Spider-Man, Ghost Rider, Ms. Marvel, Blue Beetle, etc.) at the expense of said existing character? Isn't it better if new characters and super hero identities are created from the ground up?

    5. What is the line between progress and pandering?

    I'm asking these questions because I'm of the mindset that by keeping track one is kind of contributing to the inequalities continuing...though, obviously, to a much much smaller/minor degree than anyone who truly has racist, sexist beliefs. I guess part of what I'm asking is can minority groups can be looked at as being given 100% equal treatment if the minority groups themselves can't stop looking at themselves as minorities and do the numbers/percentages play into looking at themselves as such? It's not just about numbers and percentages to me (even if they do need to increase). I truly don't look into the race, sexual orientation, gender,religion, etc of comic creators, characters, movie directors, etc. (Of course in certain circumstances it becomes somewhat apparent based on a name, photograph, etc). For example, a few posts up, someone expressed disappointment that minority creators weren't being considered for the vacant Ant-Man director's chair. Have they truly looked into the race, gender, sexual orientation of each prospect? Should I be doing the same? Isn't the ultimate goal that nobody gives a crap about any of that? Shouldn't we just like a character because of their character? Watch a movie because of the abilities of the actors/directors?

    Please don't take my post as saying I'm looking at things the right way and you're wrong. I'm perfectly willing to admit I'm might be missing, don't understand, or can't relate to something in my outlook on minority equality.
    Last edited by Cap'n_RDM; 06-07-2014 at 09:04 AM.

  9. #639
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    1. For those keeping track of the number of minority characters and creators in comics, why do you do it? Do you feel it adds to or takes away from your enjoyment of comics?

    Personally I don't keep track of the numbers but I do think it is important to be objective when addressing the issue of minority representation. It is far too easy for some to say "hey, you've got Captain Marvel, Miles Morales, and Northstar -- what are you complaining about?" as if having one or two examples of specific "minority" groups somehow makes up for the fact that -- in a country where women and other minorities make up about 70-80% of the population -- white males still make up some 80-90% of the main characters and creators of said productions.

    And, yes, more diversity adds to my enjoyment of the comics in question. The X-Men and the New Mutants books were two of my favorites when I was younger and this was no doubt due to their inherent diversity.

    2. What is the ultimate goal/standard (don't know if this is the right word but hopefully you get my point) you are hoping is achieved? Are you truly looking for "x" number of minority groups to be represented in an equal percentage?

    Myself, I'd just like to see more balance. I don't have any hard and fast numeric goals but realistically, setting such goals would help to achieve said balance.

    3. Will you purchase a comic simply because it has a minority character or creator?

    Depends on the character and creator in question. Comic book by Kyle Baker starring Static or Kathryn Immonen starring Karolina Dean -- probably so. Comic book by Tyler Perry starring Medea -- probably not.

    4. Is it acceptable if a minority character is given the mantle of an existing non-minority character (Spider-Man, Ghost Rider, Ms. Marvel, Blue Beetle, etc.) at the expense of said existing character? Isn't it better if new characters and super hero identities are created from the ground up?

    Again -- depends on the writer. Ms. Marvel is a great comic (so far) and Miles Morales is also a good take on the Spiderman mythos. While I'd prefer the original character approach (which is why I write and draw my own comics) realistically many companies take the other approach in order to boost sales, which is understandable.

    5. What is the line between progress and pandering?

    Progress, in my opinion, is creating a three-dimensional character whose persona is more important than his or her race, religion, sexuality, etc. Pandering is creating a character specifically to appeal to an audience based on his or her race, religion, sexuality, etc.

    Ms. Marvel (again) is a good example of progress in this regard. I like Kamala because she seems like a real teenage girl who wants to do good in the world, not because she is a brown-skinned Muslim who meets some unspoken diversity quota.
    Last edited by aja_christopher; 06-07-2014 at 10:08 AM.

  10. #640

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cap'n_RDM View Post
    1. For those keeping track of the number of minority characters and creators in comics, why do you do it? Do you feel it adds to or takes away from your enjoyment of comics?
    I wouldn't say I really keep track, though I'll occasionally bring up some numbers in discussions like the ones on here. I would say, though, that diversity generally does add to my enjoyment.

    2. What is the ultimate goal/standard (don't know if this is the right word but hopefully you get my point) you are hoping is achieved? Are you truly looking for "x" number of minority groups to be represented in an equal percentage? This percentage would vary depending on the number of minority groups you are looking for. Or are you looking simply for 50% white, 50% non-white regardless of the number of minority groups represented?
    No ultimate goal, really. I think diversity is a never-ending fight. I'm certainly not in favour of "quotas," and I don't think anyone here is. What I want is for the creators to consider whether it's possible to tell their story with a diverse cast (for example, Christopher Yost, with New Warriors, obviously decided it was, since he's got a black woman, a Latina, an Asian guy and a Jewish guy, along with two white guys and a blue girl, and the cast works well). I also want for Marvel's editors to make a greater effort to look for minority creators, and for those minority creators to not be pigeon-holed into writing only minority books and characters. CBR, just back in February, had their month of black comic book creators, so maybe Marvel could look into hiring some of those people.

    3. Will you purchase a comic simply because it has a minority character or creator?
    It depends. I won't buy a book I don't enjoy, certainly. I did pick up the first issue of All-New Ghost Rider specifically because the creator and character were both minorities (the character's Latino, the writer is half-black, half-Latino). If I hadn't enjoyed it, I wouldn't have picked up the next issue. Luckily, I've been really enjoying it, so I'm going to keep buying it. Same with Ms. Marvel. Same with X-Men. Same with quite a few other books. On the flip side, I've just never been able to really get into Marjorie Liu's stuff, so I didn't buy Astonishing X-Men, despite having an Asian-American female writer and a reasonably diverse cast (which also included Karma, one of my all-time favourite characters).

    So a minority creator or character isn't a guarantee for me to buy something. But it does grab my interest and make me more likely to check it out.

    4. Is it acceptable if a minority character is given the mantle of an existing non-minority character (Spider-Man, Ghost Rider, Ms. Marvel, Blue Beetle, etc.) at the expense of said existing character? Isn't it better if new characters and super hero identities are created from the ground up?
    Depends on the circumstances. With Ghost Rider and Ms. Marvel, they weren't at the expense of existing characters - Johnny Blaze is still appearing in Thunderbolts, and Carol got a promotion to Captain Marvel. Part of the problem is that creating a new character is a huge risk. New characters seldom really catch on. Giving them a familiar identity helps with that, at least a little bit. Would Miles Morales have caught on if he hadn't assumed the Spider-Man identity? Probably not. More likely, he would've languished and been cancelled in less than a year. Would Kamala Khan have gotten so much attention if she'd taken a different name? It's tough to tell - I think the Ms. Marvel name actually did automatically endear her to a lot of fans of Carol.

    By the same token, there's no reason, really, why a character who achieves some success in a legacy identity can't pick their own name later on. If Kamala Khan actually does become a successful, long-lasting character, she could definitely wind up deciding to create her own legacy, and leave the Ms. Marvel name for the next girl to pick up.

    5. What is the line between progress and pandering?
    Aja gave a good answer for this. Pandering would be someone today making a character like the '70s version of Luke Cage. Pandering is a character with no depth or personality beyond the fact that they belong to a certain group. Progress is complicated, compelling characters with a wide range of backgrounds. I would also say progress is not treating those backgrounds as being largely irrelevant. Ms. Marvel is a perfect example of what to do - she's a Muslim, and that's definitely a significant part of who she is, but it doesn't define her. Compare her to the original Arabian Knight, was was actually pretty much a stereotype whose personality started and ended with "Saudi Arabian." Another way not to do it would be to have a Muslim character whose religious background has absolutely no bearing on who they are.


    You're right that the ultimate goal is for people to no longer care about gender, race, orientation and all that. But that day is a long, long, long way off. In the meantime, straight white men still dominate pretty much everything in Western society. We're still the ones who make most blockbuster movies. We're still the ones making most comics. We're also still the ones who actually decide who makes movies and comics. So, until we reach a point where anyone is allowed to make movies and comics and so on, I think we need to make a greater effort to actively search for women and minorities to make movies.

  11. #641
    Astonishing Member Overhazard's Avatar
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    1. Well, I would say it's important to keep track just to see what's out there, and to support as much good work by diverse creators as possible. I would say that it adds to my enjoyment.

    2. I don't really have an end goal, I can't speak for everyone in this thread, but for myself, it would be nice to see that straight, white, and male aren't automatically the go to choices when it comes to individual characters or teams. Same call when it comes to creators. I'm not one of those people that believes the industry is dying, but it needs to open up to diversity instead of running from it, because diversity is what's going to save it.

    3. No, in that path lies folly. I have to like the writer, the art, the characters, and the premise of the book. Currently there are seven marvel books I'm interested in. Nova, Mighty Avengers, Ms. Marvel, Captain Marvel, New Warriors, Fantastic Four, and All-New Invaders. For me, they hit all those bench marks, and some other books that have a more diverse cast doesn't.

    4. It depends on the character. People like Ms. Marvel and Ghost Rider just fine, Nova got thrown some shade, mostly due to the fact that it seemed like Richie was just gone, man, I like richie, I shudder to think at what bendis will do to him. Which leads me to miles morales. I really, really tried to get into miles. I've been a webhead my whole life, and initially I thought that I would love to read about a wall crawler that looked like me, then I did. It just didn't happen for me. I don't know what it is, the decompression, the bendis-speak, or the fact that bendis didn't give peter fans any real kind of closure instead of drudging up things about peter.

    That's just me though. Whenever miles comes up in this thread I usually don't say anything.

    5. The line between progress and pandering. Well, three dimensional characters are more progressive, like Ms. Marvel and Captain Marvel. Early Luke Cage was pandering, a pastishe of blackploitation characters, but he's evolved to be more than that now.

  12. #642
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cap'n_RDM View Post
    This is my first post in this thread. I check in from time to time but not regularly because in general threads like this, while sometimes encouraging good discussion, just end up going in circles. I would like to state some opinions and ask some questions though.

    1. For those keeping track of the number of minority characters and creators in comics, why do you do it? Do you feel it adds to or takes away from your enjoyment of comics?

    2. What is the ultimate goal/standard (don't know if this is the right word but hopefully you get my point) you are hoping is achieved? Are you truly looking for "x" number of minority groups to be represented in an equal percentage? This percentage would vary depending on the number of minority groups you are looking for. Or are you looking simply for 50% white, 50% non-white regardless of the number of minority groups represented?

    3. Will you purchase a comic simply because it has a minority character or creator?

    4. Is it acceptable if a minority character is given the mantle of an existing non-minority character (Spider-Man, Ghost Rider, Ms. Marvel, Blue Beetle, etc.) at the expense of said existing character? Isn't it better if new characters and super hero identities are created from the ground up?

    5. What is the line between progress and pandering?

    I'm asking these questions because I'm of the mindset that by keeping track one is kind of contributing to the inequalities continuing...though, obviously, to a much much smaller/minor degree than anyone who truly has racist, sexist beliefs. I guess part of what I'm asking is can minority groups can be looked at as being given 100% equal treatment if the minority groups themselves can't stop looking at themselves as minorities and do the numbers/percentages play into looking at themselves as such? It's not just about numbers and percentages to me (even if they do need to increase). I truly don't look into the race, sexual orientation, gender,religion, etc of comic creators, characters, movie directors, etc. (Of course in certain circumstances it becomes somewhat apparent based on a name, photograph, etc). For example, a few posts up, someone expressed disappointment that minority creators weren't being considered for the vacant Ant-Man director's chair. Have they truly looked into the race, gender, sexual orientation of each prospect? Should I be doing the same? Isn't the ultimate goal that nobody gives a crap about any of that? Shouldn't we just like a character because of their character? Watch a movie because of the abilities of the actors/directors?

    Please don't take my post as saying I'm looking at things the right way and you're wrong. I'm perfectly willing to admit I'm might be missing, don't understand, or can't relate to something in my outlook on minority equality.


    1) Keeping track of minority characters and creators won't necessarily increase one's enjoyment of a particular comic, but i think it's useful when it comes to having an overview of the industry. Course what's more important is how those characters or creators are being treated or used. It's great if you have your gay character, but if he's kept in limbo, what's the point? If you have a female writer on staff, but her pitches never get approved, how much progress has been made?

    2) The ultimate goal is not a numbers game. We shouldn't look at it like, "Ok we have 10 blacks, 9 gays, and 20 women so now we're done." The goal is to have a wide variety of characters by a wide variety of creators in the best possible comics. Sure we can make a list of Marvel/DC heroes of different ethnicities, but how many of them are the stars of their own titles? Sure Warpath exists, but...

    3) I might give it a second look, but i won't buy it just cause. Mighty Avengers is one of my favorite comics right now. However, I dropped Mr Terrific pretty quickly despite being a black hero written by a black writer cuz the comic just wasn't that good.

    4) I personally don't mind legacy characters, although I get that some fans aren't thrilled by them. It's not an either or situation, we can both legacy characters and new characters.

    5) Thing is, Marvel/DC pander to fans every month. Women with breasts bigger than their heads, Wolverine in everything, 12 X-titles each month, AvX...I not sure why including minorities in a comic is somehow worse or even on the same par. I do think the thing we want to avoid is stereotypes or tokenism. The thing is to create/use characters in meaningful role and as well rounded personalities.

  13. #643
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cap'n_RDM View Post
    1. For those keeping track of the number of minority characters and creators in comics, why do you do it? Do you feel it adds to or takes away from your enjoyment of comics?
    OCD, mostly. I like making lists. I also like understand things, and learn new things about the stuff I'm interested in (like those sports enthusiasts who like to collect stats on players for their teams that have died a long time ago, and can't possibly affect the games they are watching today). And so, yes, it adds to my enjoyment.

    2. What is the ultimate goal/standard (don't know if this is the right word but hopefully you get my point) you are hoping is achieved? Are you truly looking for "x" number of minority groups to be represented in an equal percentage? This percentage would vary depending on the number of minority groups you are looking for. Or are you looking simply for 50% white, 50% non-white regardless of the number of minority groups represented?
    I have no goal, other than to read interesting stories. I am the straight white male majority, and so, reading stories about people who are me, doesn't really learn me nuthin.' I like to read books about aliens and elves and vampires, which are *totally* outside my experience, and I also like to read stories with women as protagonist, or minority protagonists, or other people as protagonists whose lives are nothing like mine. Superman is already *nothing* like me, being rocketed to Earth by aliens and having godlike powers. Batman is already nothing like me, being the orphaned son of billionaires raised by his butler in a ginormous mansion over a bat-filled cave. Thor is a 2000+ year old mythological god (and possibly space alien) thrown down to Earth by his daddy for being an arrogant brat. Magneto is a gypsy Jew mutant fuzzy-bad-metaphor-for-civil-rights who spent time in a Nazi concentration camp as a child and has the power to rearrange the Earth's magnetic fields and throw submarines around. Storm is a 'black' woman with Caucasian features, white hair and blue eyes who may or may not also be a princess and / or sorceress and / or high priestess of a religion that she doesn't even know the name of, and can whip up category 5 hurricanes and possibly knifed hundreds of tourists to death for their wallets as a toddler in Cairo.

    I can enjoy stories about people so *ludicrously* different than myself, with whom *nobody* could possibly 'identify' in any meaningful way, so it's not like I'd be breaking my back trying to get into a story about a black person or a woman or a gay person. If it's a good story, it's a good story. The protagonist can be my identical twin, or a psychic gorilla from a city of talking gorillas, or a hyperintelligent shade of the color blue.

    A story about a guy just like me is automatically going to be less interesting, because I already am a guy just like me, and, since I'm not a teenager, I've got a pretty good handle on how being a guy like me works already.

    3. Will you purchase a comic simply because it has a minority character or creator?
    Nope. Good storytelling, characterization and art are my go-to factors. Stories about characters less like me are more likely to draw my interest, only because, I am me, and have been long enough that there's not a ton left to learn about being just like me. (And if I do want to read about straight white male characters, it's not like I can't pick up any of a thousand comics I own that are pretty much exclusively about us, with only the occasional token woman on the team.)

    As for minority creators, I'm American. We buy clothes at Wal-Mart *made by slaves in the Marianas, who are shot if they try to escape.* I usually don't even know the minority/majority/politics/sexuality of the creators of the books I read, and, unless I read that they are white supremacists and just shot up a Holocaust memorial, am unlikely to care.

    4. Is it acceptable if a minority character is given the mantle of an existing non-minority character (Spider-Man, Ghost Rider, Ms. Marvel, Blue Beetle, etc.) at the expense of said existing character? Isn't it better if new characters and super hero identities are created from the ground up?
    Ground up is harder. Getting a new character to 'stick' is always a tough sell. That said, it does nobody any favors to replace a non-minority character with a minority, as it just pisses off the fans of the original character and leads to racist/hateful nonsense showing up, which makes the *actual* fans of the original character look bad for being associated with these schmucks who jumped in to take some racist shots under pretense of being fans of the original character, whom they didn't care about until a black dude 'replaced' him. (And it depends on whether or not the new minority legacy is actually taking anything away from the original character. The new Ms. Marvel isn't taking jack from Carol Danvers. The new Blue Beetle didn't take jack away from Ted Kord, who was already dead anyway.)

    A better solution, IMO, is to find the older pre-existing minority characters, such as Black Panther, Luke Cage, Monica Rambeau or White Tiger, and dust them off and make them fresh again (getting rid of any painful caricature bits about them, like Cage's jive talk, or dialing down on things that might not go over so well in the modern day, like him draping himself in chains or wearing shackles).

    Granted, that's easier to do with women and black characters. (Assuming that they haven't been Black Goliathed or Amazing Manned and killed off in the years between being ignored and being forgotten...) The 'old days' had less Hispanic, Asian (non-villains) and / or gay characters, so that will require some creation of new characters, or awkward back-fitting (no, Maria Stark was always Hispanic, even if we've never seen her and she's apparently had no influence on Tony's life, ever, making Tony, uh, really the worst attempt at inclusion ever, like saying that I'd be a great Hispanic role model because my mom's name is popular in Mexico...).

    5. What is the line between progress and pandering?
    Everybody draws it in a different place, so it's a trap of Diogenetic proportions even trying to find it.

    One shouldn't give up on trying to do a good thing, just because others have done it wrong.

  14. #644
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    1) I don't keep track but for me I have seen some refreshing stories from creators that are not a straight white male, when a set of writers want to continually do the same story over and over with the same character after a while I am more interested in what say this female writer is doing with this character I haven't seen in a while

    of the numbers but the thought of a new character being created is not another in the long line of default straight white male and a comic written by someone who is not a straight white male isn't seen as inferior to comics written by a straight white male. The late great Dwayne McDuffie wasn't a straight white male and he added a lot to both comics and tv mediums

    2) Balance, these companies market it as being like the real world yet begrudgingly has the attitude of not wanting to embrace it yet some how want me to just still throw money their way

    3) It depends, I love anything Milestone related but the Static Shock comic was not a good comic nor was Mister Teriffic which was written by a black male yet it wasn't good either meanwhile I have not liked a lot of Bendis comics I have read yet I tried out the current Ult. Spidey comic with Miles Morales and it is hands down one of my fav comic to read much like Dwayne McDuffie got me to read Fantastic Four and enjoy it when before hand I couldn't be bothered to read a F4 comic

    4) True it is better to create a new character from the ground up but when it comes to Marvel/DC creating just A new character is a struggle but if he/she takes up the mantle of a previous hero there is new magic to be had there in the example of Kamala/Sam/Robbie/Miles who all four get bought when their latest issue drops. While yes it is a old name they're using but thanks to writers who want to tell new stories they had done this in new ways that may or in some cases might not have been possible with the previous barer of the mantle

    5) Progress is a full fledged three dimensional character like those that have been mentioned while pandering is sadly what DC is doing with Cyborg in that they want to look diverse so there's one random black guy on the team to be in the background and utter a word during group battles

  15. #645

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    I just wanted to comment on this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    a hyperintelligent shade of the color blue.
    That sounds so much like a Grant Morrison idea. If someone had suggested it to him when he was doing Doom Patrol, he would've thrown it in.

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