The Minority Report! Diversity In The MU.

[Mr MajestiK]

Are you being deliberately obtuse? It's been explained to you. Repeatedly.

Who's being obtuse?

You do know that "explaining" something doesn't obligate anyone to actually accept said explanation as gospel?

It is not uncommon for someone who'd always believed him/herself to be straight to have a same-sex experience and realize that s/he's actually bisexual, or even gay. It is less common for someone who identifies as LGBT to become straight. A bisexual - or even a full-on gay person - may fall in love with someone of the opposite sex, get married, have kids, and spend the rest of their lives with that person. But they're still attracted to their own gender, and remain either bisexual or gay-with-an-exception.

All of which has nothing to do with why Gillen decided to turn a formerly heterosexual character bisexual after porting said character into a book that had more LGBT featured within its pages than almost 98% of its 616 MU based output combined.

I cannot for the life of me understand why you keep repeating this business about LGBT's being less likely to become heterosexual without still harbouring desires for same sex partners juxtaposed against it allegedly being "more common" for self-identified heterosexuals to "discover" bisexual or homosexual leaningss via experimentation?

The primary question I posed was pretty specific and so far, only Joe Acro came out with a straight forward answer. (which was all I expected from anyone posting in this thread)

Understand? Do you get it? Do you get what we've been saying, over and over and over? Has it sunk in for you yet, what the difference is?

Sorry bruv, I'm afraid we're on totally different wavelengths here as it's obvious you don't get where I'm coming from either.

The level of outrage if a writer decides to take a character who's previously identified as gay and put him/her in a heterosexual relationship would depend on the writer and how it's handled. Someone like PAD, who has a strong history of LGBT inclusiveness, would get the benefit of the doubt more than someone like Remender, who doesn't have that history. Exploring the sexual identity of a young gay character would go over a lot better than exploring the sexual identity of an older gay character - Anole falling for a girl would prompt less anger than Northstar falling for a woman. And of course, the writer would also need to be extremely careful of unfortunate implication: Having a gay character start dating the opposite sex risks sending the implication that being gay is unnatural and that gay people would just be happier if they were straight. Avoiding that implication would be a tough trick to do in a story like that, and I think most writers probably couldn't really pull it off well.

Irrespective of whoever chose to tackle such a sensitive subject, I'd have zero interest in reading any story where an established LGBT character was turned heterosexual.

As I've said repeatedly, I have zero tolerance for race/gender/orientation bending of any kind period.

I hope that sinks in.

His powers meant he shared the experiences of other people. This meant he knew, to an extent, what it was like kissing a guy, even though he'd never done it. That's where the "Superpowers As Metaphor" element comes in: His powers were the experimentation. Basically, his powers gave him the benefits of exploration without him actually doing it himself. (The fact that he didn't have the direct experience himself was something that bothered him, which was why he kissed Teddy.)

So in essence, what you're telling me is that Prodigy's "discovery" of his bisexuality came about as a byproduct of his superpower?

Do people in the real world have to rely on "powers" to know whether they prefer having same sex encounters as opposed to heterosexual ones?

But then again, since you're of the opinion that asking how cool LGBT readers would be if a homosexual/bisexual character was turned heterosexual is a "BS talking point" it's probably best if we agree to disagree on this subject.

Peace.

[Tiamatty]

Who's being obtuse?

You do know that "explaining" something doesn't obligate anyone to actually accept said explanation as gospel?

No, but it's generally considered good form to actually explain why you think a given explanation doesn't work, something you've refused to do.

All of which has nothing to do with why Gillen decided to turn a formerly heterosexual character bisexual after porting said character into a book that had more LGBT featured within its pages than almost 98% of its 616 MU based output combined.

Because he thought it would make sense for the character and be an interesting story.

I cannot for the life of me understand why you keep repeating this business about LGBT's being less likely to become heterosexual without still harbouring desires for same sex partners juxtaposed against it allegedly being "more common" for self-identified heterosexuals to "discover" bisexual or homosexual leaningss via experimentation?

Because it's common for superhero stories to explore real-world issues, including exploring one's sexual identity, and in the real world, it's more common for straight people to realize they're LGBT than for LGBT people to realize that they're straight.

The primary question I posed was pretty specific and so far, only Joe Acro came out with a straight forward answer. (which was all I expected from anyone posting in this thread)

I thought I gave a pretty straightforward answer to the question, too: That as a rule, no, an LGBT character becoming completely straight would not go over well, for a variety of reasons, with the relative lack of LGBT representation being a major reason for that.

Irrespective of whoever chose to tackle such a sensitive subject, I'd have zero interest in reading any story where an established LGBT character was turned heterosexual.

As I've said repeatedly, I have zero tolerance for race/gender/orientation bending of any kind period.

Which is ridiculous. So, a character's first relationship should permanently and forever define their sexual identity? That seems to be what you're saying. You're completely ruling out any possibility of a character's sexual identity evolving. That's just a ridiculous stance to take. Real people see their sexual identities evolve plenty, so why should that not happen with characters? Why is it that a character can only ever be bisexual if they're established that way right off the bat?

Your position here is just absurd.

So in essence, what you're telling me is that Prodigy's "discovery" of his bisexuality came about as a byproduct of his superpower?

Do people in the real world have to rely on "powers" to know whether they prefer having same sex encounters as opposed to heterosexual ones?

No, people in the real world don't have powers to help them. Superpowers. As. Frigging. Metaphor. Gillen's run was all about Superpowers As Metaphor. That was the point. That was the core theme that ran under everything that happened. It was the reason he wrote the book.

What is it that makes "Superpowers As Metaphor" so frigging difficult for people to understand?

But then again, since you're of the opinion that asking how cool LGBT readers would be if a homosexual/bisexual character was turned heterosexual is a "BS talking point" it's probably best if we agree to disagree on this subject.

When the answers given are ignored in order to keep throwing it out as a false equivalence, then yes, it is a talking point. People have said why there would be objections to an LGBT character being revealed as straight. It's not some sort of nonsensical purism that means characters are never allowed to grow and evolve in ways that real people do. It's because it removes diversity and potentially sends the terrible message that there's something wrong with being gay and they'd be happier if they were straight. When a character who was straight turns LGBT, that adds diversity and sends the message that, hey, being gay is OK, while also exploring a real-world issue that affects a lot of people, especially young people.

[Mr MajestiK]

your response to my last post

Like I said previously, since my points are either "BS" or "ridiculous" to you, it probably really is best for me to respectfully step out of this discussion.

Peace and blessings.

[ed2962]

My response would be that race is seldom really focused on in general. Prodigy being black was never a particular focus of his character as it was.

Ok. And I'm not saying that every time you see Prodigy he has to be, "I was coming to the meeting and I was stopped by the cops!! And I'm young black and angry about it!!!" Chavez: "An' they thought I was some gang banger's girlfriend! Revolution!" However, it wouldn't be so terrible if such issues were occasionally acknowledged.

On the other hand, I'd only want to see such issues addressed if they were done so in a sensitive and intelligent manner.

[Tiamatty]

Ok. And I'm not saying that every time you see Prodigy he has to be, "I was coming to the meeting and I was stopped by the cops!! And I'm young black and angry about it!!!" Chavez: "An' they thought I was some gang banger's girlfriend! Revolution!" However, it wouldn't be so terrible if such issues were occasionally acknowledged.

On the other hand, I'd only want to see such issues addressed if they were done so in a sensitive and intelligent manner.

Oh, yeah, I agree with that. I actually should've said that I'd like it if racial issues did get handled more. I'd love it if we saw Prodigy get pulled over for a Driving While Black, or stuff like that. I suppose part of the problem is that most of the discrimination black people face is pretty subtle, and comics are all about going big. It's tough to explore issues of racial discrimination without making it so over-the-top that people just roll their eyes.

There's also the matter of most writers being white. We white people don't really see much of the black experience.

[Kasper Cole]

Being a homosexual is emasculating?

There's nothing emasculating about being gay.

There's nothing emasculating about being gay, but there is something to what BlackGodKing is saying in relation to the negative perceptions of homosexuality and the historic emasculation of black males. Much of the homophobia in black communities is tied in with hyper masculinity and that stems from said centuries of emasculation.

And before anyone even makes that leap i'm not saying that excuses homophobia or the perception that gay = feminine. I'm just saying you can look at history and see the underlying causes of some things. By examining and understanding those causes it'll make it easier to move beyond such things.

[Alvarez]

There's nothing emasculating about being gay, but there is something to what BlackGodKing is saying in relation to the negative perceptions of homosexuality and the historic emasculation of black males. Much of the homophobia in black communities is tied in with hyper masculinity and that stems from said centuries of emasculation.

And before anyone even makes that leap i'm not saying that excuses homophobia or the perception that gay = feminine. I'm just saying you can look at history and see the underlying causes of some things. By examining and understanding those causes it'll make it easier to move beyond such things.

I understand that's how society and black culture might see it.
Same for Latino culture, there's a lot of machismo nonsense that leads to young women forced into the role of housewife and the shame of homosexuality being placed on both sexes.
Gender roles become a prime concern for these families.
I get that, it's part of the cultural landscape of my people and other minorities.

It's stupid, but I get it.

[Tiamatty]

There's nothing emasculating about being gay, but there is something to what BlackGodKing is saying in relation to the negative perceptions of homosexuality and the historic emasculation of black males. Much of the homophobia in black communities is tied in with hyper masculinity and that stems from said centuries of emasculation.

And before anyone even makes that leap i'm not saying that excuses homophobia or the perception that gay = feminine. I'm just saying you can look at history and see the underlying causes of some things. By examining and understanding those causes it'll make it easier to move beyond such things.

Sure. That explains why some black people would see homosexuality as emasculating. It does not, however, explain why someone who has no problem with homosexuality would see one gay male character as being emasculating. There are still other straight black male characters current appearing in various books. Black Panther is arguably the main character in New Avengers. Luke Cage is a main character in Mighty Avengers (and he's even got a wife and kid). Falcon is technically in Avengers, is in Mighty Avengers, and has gotten a spotlight issue of World. Mighty also has Blade, Blue Marvel and Power Man. Avengers has Sunspot, Manifold and Nightmask. Uncanny X-Men has Triage. There's the Iron Patriot mini right now.

So while there are, admittedly, still pathetically few books featuring black male characters, I don't think the existence of a single LGBT black male character should really be that objectionable.

[Kasper Cole]

Sure. That explains why some black people would see homosexuality as emasculating. It does not, however, explain why someone who has no problem with homosexuality would see one gay male character as being emasculating. There are still other straight black male characters current appearing in various books. Black Panther is arguably the main character in New Avengers. Luke Cage is a main character in Mighty Avengers (and he's even got a wife and kid). Falcon is technically in Avengers, is in Mighty Avengers, and has gotten a spotlight issue of World. Mighty also has Blade, Blue Marvel and Power Man. Avengers has Sunspot, Manifold and Nightmask. Uncanny X-Men has Triage. There's the Iron Patriot mini right now.

So while there are, admittedly, still pathetically few books featuring black male characters, I don't think the existence of a single LGBT black male character should really be that objectionable.

I agree with that.

As I said I don't care that Prodigy was revealed to be Bi-sexual. I just wish he had been appearing a book that i actually enjoyed reading and I don't like seeing him written out of character at times.

[Kasper Cole]

I understand that's how society and black culture might see it.
Same for Latino culture, there's a lot of machismo nonsense that leads to young women forced into the role of housewife and the shame of homosexuality being placed on both sexes.
Gender roles become a prime concern for these families.
I get that, it's part of the cultural landscape of my people and other minorities.

It's stupid, but I get it.

Agreed.

I just wanted to point that out issues of homosexuality and homophobia in communities of color is very complex. Sometimes people not of that culture are quick to make judgements without understanding those complexities. Things like that usually just result further isolating LGBTQ folks within those communities.

[NexusTenebrare]

Agreed.

I just wanted to point that out issues of homosexuality and homophobia in communities of color is very complex. Sometimes people not of that culture are quick to make judgements without understanding those complexities. Things like that usually just result further isolating LGBTQ folks within those communities.

I'm sure anyone can find a reason for their bigotry. That doesn't excuse it though.
I'd condemn a racist gay person just as much as I'd condemn PoC for being homophobic.

[Kasper Cole]

I'm sure anyone can find a reason for their bigotry. That doesn't excuse it though.
I'd condemn a racist gay person just as much as I'd condemn PoC for being homophobic.

Which is why I said that EXACT same thing. Looking at the causes of something and understanding the complexities of things is NOT the same thing as excusing homophobia.

[Greg]

To emasculate them in media. Which is not unprecedented.

Damn... I am offended.

[Alvarez]

I'm sure anyone can find a reason for their bigotry. That doesn't excuse it though.
I'd condemn a racist gay person just as much as I'd condemn PoC for being homophobic.

Bigotry should be called out no matter what.
I know I've gotten into plenty fistfights with extended family and other Chicanos for telling them to cut the racist or homophobic crap.

As minorities (really hate that term) we have a responsibility to rise above what our people have been subjected to and not do the same.

[aja_christopher]

Bigotry should be called out no matter what.
I know I've gotten into plenty fistfights with extended family and other Chicanos for telling them to cut the racist or homophobic crap.

As minorities (really hate that term) we have a responsibility to rise above what our people have been subjected to and not do the same.

I hate that term too, which is why I try to put it in quotes whenever possible.

We aren't the "minority" -- we are the majority and it's important to remember that.

Everything else you've said is spot on -- I'm writing a book on racism in the modern era ("Modus") and it's a much more complex issue than most people realize because most people are so comfortable -- and even casual -- in their ignorance.

The assumption that if you are black or latino that you must come from the "ghetto" and love rap and hate rock... the assumption that if you are Asian you must be good in school but bad with women... the assumption that if you are white male then you're automatically part of the problem rather than a potential ally... and those are just the more obvious "stereotypes".

There are plenty of others that we witness daily but simply shrug off due to how often they happen (cops shining lights at me at night and then turning around to question whether I actually live in my "gentrified" Hollywood neighborhood) as if we not only accept such behavior but have now come to expect it.

It's one of those things that you can fight on a personal level whenever possible, granted, but in reality racism is institutionalized and entrenched into nearly every aspect of (American) society.

A concentrated effort from all concerned is required and in my opinion, media such as comic books, videogames and movies are key to changing the status quo.

I have no problem with televising the revolution -- it needs to be seen by as many people as possible for the greatest effect possible.